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<p>Hello Mike. IP space was (and is never) meant to fulfill the IP
market era but to get people connected in the most reasonable and
fair way. And the RIR should always be the entity who validate
org's justification for the need of more IP space, not private
companies having profit with it therefore with no neutral interest
upon the topic.</p>
<p>When people go around the system with the justification that
'market demands it', someone else is treated unfairly. In a ideal
scenario any unused or unjustified IP space should go back to the
RIR pool which in turn based on its own policies should
re-distribute that IP space to organizations in need, that justify
and that are possibility waiting on a queue. If people go around
this logic other are treated unfairly because someone could pay
more and fewer people are privileged at the cost of longer wait
for those who go by the natural path.<br>
Yes I understand the ideal scenario may never be reached but at
least we should bind ourselves to work towards that, not in the
opposite way. One important point to also mention is that it makes
harder for newcomers. In my personal view considering the current
scenario they are the most important to take in consideration as
existing ASNs have technical ways deal with IPv4 exhaustion,
newcomers don't.<br>
Leasing IP space from one ASN to another because it cannot get it
immediately from the RIR is a way to go around the system and to
treat others unfairly. If a RIR doesn't accept lease in such way
as a justification then it is a clear message that something is
not right.<br>
</p>
<p>It may all sound poesy but it is based on the concepts how it was
thought from the beginnings.<br>
</p>
<p>Ahh, and before someone thinks I am against legitimate transfers
in certain conditions, as you mentioned are valid from a couple of
years already, I am not. But that's a different topic which I will
not go into to not divert from the subject about IP Leasing.<br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for your input.</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/05/2019 21:13, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:16b061556ec.dc0eca11104921.6146194226790123963@iptrading.com">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;">
<div>Hi Scott and Fernando,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for the change of subject and the discussion.<br>
</div>
<div>Fernando, your vision of how things should be is reasonable
and consistent, but archaic in the market era.<br>
</div>
<div>We did things your way for decades, people did not return
addresses for reasons involving utilization.<br>
</div>
<div>Why not audit them? Too expensive and fraught.<br>
</div>
<div>The community decided to provide incentives in the form of
payment for IPv4 blocks.<br>
</div>
<div>We began that in 2010 and since then transfers have
provided the bulk of new allocations worldwide.<br>
</div>
<div>The lure of lucre brought un- and under-utilized addresses
to the market, which by nature elevates them to their most
productive use.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That has brought us to the current state. Whereas leasing
was always problematical because it allowed the lessor to
claim more address space from the RIRs by demonstrating
efficient usage of his blocks, now there are basically no free
pools at the RIRs, so there shouldn't be the same worries.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the absence of a policy, leasing is quite openly
advertised and is legitimate, although not a valid
justification for ARIN to approve more space for the Lessor.<br>
</div>
<div>For the present, we should have a policy that recognizes
legitimate leasing types (LOA, VPN) and requires the same
sorts of assignment and delegation records commonly done by
ISPs for their customers.<br>
</div>
<div>It should recognize that blocks can be legitimately
advertised under un-related ASNs with a valid Letter of
Authorization, which must contain certain information.<br>
</div>
<div>It could have a process for identifying ARIN members who
are participating in a lease policy violation, for notifying
them, and for potentially punishing them under RSA terms.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We see more market participants who have a longer view of
the duration of the transition to IPv6, and in a time of
continually rising IPv4 prices, who can blame address block
holders who want to lease their blocks?<br>
</div>
<div>At the end of the lease, instead of depreciated and
worn-out assets, they could be shiny and more valuable then
when the lease started.<br>
</div>
<div>(Or they could be blacklisted.)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,<br>
Mike</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="" class="zmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Wed, 29 May 2019 19:33:25 -0400
<b>Scott Leibrand <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com"><scottleibrand@gmail.com></a></b> wrote
----<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 6px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:11 PM Fernando
Frediani <<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<div
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074moz-cite-prefix">On
29/05/2019 19:26, Scott Leibrand wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>(New subject line for a new topic.)<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">You just described a lease
policy: one where leasing is not allowed.
Such a policy would have to exist to be
enforced. Right now there is no policy, so
leasing is allowed because it's not
prohibited.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>No it doesn't. When someone leases IP
addressing it proves it doesn't have use for its
original justification. No one can think asking
for more IP addressing and justify as "I need
them to lease them" is something that would be
ever accepted. If it is not a justification you
can give to get more IPs from the RIR than it is
not a accepted practice.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ISPs lease space to their customers all
the time, bundled with IP connectivity.
Hosting companies do the same. So do VPN
providers. The challenge with a "no
leasing allowed" policy is differentiating
between a valid reassignment of space to
accompany multihomed IP connectivity, vs.
an invalid reassignment of space intended
primarily as a lease, where any IP
connectivity provided is incidental, or a
fig leaf VPN that simply is set up to
comply with the policy.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>That has nothing to do with the topic and is
a totally different matter. It is conceptual.
ISPs allocate IP address to their customers
**which are not autonomous system** and cannot
get them directly from the RIR.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's not the only way IPs are allocated,
reallocated, and assigned in the RIR system. It's
also possible, and common, for an ISP to receive an
allocation from ARIN, and reallocate it to
multihomed downstream customers who do have their
own ASN and are running BGP. The ISP assigning the
space may be the primary provider of IP connectivity
for the customer at the time of the reallocation,
but may not remain so. Or they may be one of
multiple upstream transit providers, and just happen
to be the one from whom it's easiest/cheapest to get
the needed IPv4 space.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>That's the main propose of an ISP Autonomous
System go to the RIR to ask for IP space, to serve
their internal needs and customers with Internet
Services.<br>
When IP leases becomes the only service and **to
another ASN** which inside the rules can ask
directly to the RIR is certainly not the same
thing as an ISP who allocates IP space to their
end-user customer.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What if IP leases aren't the *only* service, but
the IP space is bundled with IP connectivity of some
sort? What kind of IP connectivity is sufficient to
make this "an ISP who allocates IP space to their
end-user customer" vs. an impermissible case of "IP
leases becomes the only service"?<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A more tractable policy on leasing
might focus on things like requiring
registration of the downstream recipient
of any leased space. There may be other
requirements that could be meaningfully
enforced as well, but you'll need to be
careful not to try to enforce requirements
that impinge on the business of legitimate
IP transit and hosting providers.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That's not legitimate I'm sorry. It's not
difficult to think things like: 1) Any
Autonomous System should always go to the RIR
and ask for more IP addresses<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Such a policy would put most multihomed
autonomous systems in violation of your policy at
some point in their growth.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<p>2) If it has to go around it and get from
another ASN there is something very wrong with
it. Those addresses where given **to that ASN**
for their internal use or end-user customers<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The downstream ASN is their end-user customer.
That's why reallocations exist, and not just
reassignments. But even reassignments are often
made to ASNs defined as end users (organizations not
themselves acting as ISPs and performing further
reassignments).<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<p>3) If those addresses were given for this
proposes and someone is not using (internal use
or end-user who are not ASN) then that ASN
doesn't justify for the IP space received
anymore.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Such a policy would force the reclamation of a
lot of legitimately in-use space that is still in
use primarily because it's difficult to renumber out
of.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<p>Before going ahead and writing a more specific
and clear policy for that need to find out how
ARIN currently reads and apply that. Then think
in a proper and well written policy to cover
where else needed.<br>
</p>
<p>I find very concerning defenses "as something
pretty normal" use of IP address for proposes
which they were never meant over the last
decades, be a speculating and monetizing asset
rather than serve to get people connected to the
internet going against conversation and
justification concepts. I see it seems the
recent times of IPv4 exhaustion is making many
to forget the very basics of Internet foundation
and treat IP space as his very own asset and
something irrevocable and unrecoverable.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You seem to have a very limited view of how IPs
are allocated, reallocated, and reassigned between
legitimate network operators who aren't trying to
circumvent the rules. Such practices have been in
place since before IPv6 existed. It's not about
treating IP space as property. In fact, it's the
reverse: historically the use of Provider Assigned
space when possible was the norm, and "everyone gets
their own IP space from an RIR via direct
allocation/assignment or via transfer" is a fairly
recent practice (much more common within the last
decade or so).<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Scott<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div class="x_1125712014gmail_attr"
dir="ltr">On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 2:46 PM
Fernando Frediani <<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"
class="x_1125712014gmail_quote">
<div>
<p>A lease policy should never exist in
my opinion and registries should stand
strong against it for the simple
reason that IPs are not assets or
something that belong to a company for
it to lease.<br>
</p>
<p>Is it always necessary to remind that
IP addresses are meant to be used by
the resource holders who justified
for that ? If someone is leasing it it
obviously means it does not need and
justify anymore for that IP space and
any RIR should recover them
immediately. If such a policy doesn't
exist on its terms it should exist and
should be discussed to make it sooner.<br>
I would recommend some Jon Postel
reading to those who believe "it is Ok
to lease IPs" as if they were they
very own asset as a router or a server
that you buy with a invoice and you do
whatever you like with it.<br>
</p>
<p>This type of thing goes pretty much
against concepts of conservation and
justification.<br>
Imagine if someone asked a RIR more IP
address and may justify as "I need
them in order to lease them". That's
what a lease policy would walk towards
to.</p>
<p>As I mentioned in the other message,
the fact the people do anyway and the
whois doesn't get updated is **less
important** than having people
monetizing IP addresses in such way
while there are others on waiting
lists that truly justify for those
addresses.<br>
</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748moz-cite-prefix">On
29/05/2019 18:02, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Robert,<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem of
leasing space before the 12 month
waiting period, so as *<b>only</b>*
to avoid that period, is small in
my experience.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">After a year,
any such lessor could sell if they
wanted to, and they have the same
sell/lease incentives as any other
ARIN holder.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do you have
evidence that people are
monetizing waiting-list addresses
prior to the 12 month period by
leasing them?<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What you say
below, however, is completely
correct.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have tried to
direct the community towards the
glaring absence of a lease policy
at any registry.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe it’s
time for such a policy, given the
market circumstances we find
ourselves in.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Such a policy
would allow for open leasing, with
certain recording requirements for
abuse contacts of the lessee, etc.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think such a
policy would be in-scope and would
yield, in a negative way, to the
desired results of the anti-BGP
hacking policy.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in
0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
Robert Clarke <a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:robert@rjfc.net"
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
moz-do-not-send="true"><robert@rjfc.net></a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May
29, 2019 4:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Burns <a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
moz-do-not-send="true"><mike@iptrading.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fernando Frediani <a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a>;
arin-ppml <a target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
moz-do-not-send="true"><arin-ppml@arin.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4
blocks transferred after
issuance</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Mike,<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why are you
using John's "waiting list IPv4
blocks transferred" numbers as a
baseline for the /19 numbers?
This is completely arbitrary and
doesn't give any scale as to the
problem with fraud. See my
earlier reply to John's email in
the other thread:<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"<span
class="colour"
style="color:black">Thanks for
sharing. I'd like to note that
it can be dangerous to use the
blocks transferred via
8.2/8.3/9.4 as a metric for
abuse. A fraudster that gets
past ARIN's scrutiny and
obtains IPs with fraudulent
information is probably smart
enough to lease their IPs as
opposed to selling the space
outright. There is a huge
market for leased space, and
those deals happen behind
closed doors with no oversight
from ARIN. IP addresses go for
$0.2-0.5/mo depending on
term/IP reputation/size which
could lead to $XX,XXX in
illicit revenue with no risk
of ARIN's scrutiny which would
normally occur during the
transfer process."</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="colour"
style="color:black">Robert
Clarke</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On May
29, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Mike
Burns <<a target="_blank"
href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mike@iptrading.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Hi
Fernando,</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Thanks
for the discussion.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Many
feel as you do, that
unused addresses should
be returned to ARIN for
subsequent distribution
to those in need.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Unfortunately,
that policy was not
successful in bringing
unused addresses into
actual use by those in
need.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">The
community decided to
harness the profit
motive to incentive this
process, and by all
accounts it is working.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Unfortunately
the profit motive also
incentivizes fraudulent
plundering of the
waiting list pool.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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initial; background-clip:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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initial; background-size:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial; background-clip:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">So
I am happy to discuss
the correct balancing of
things to prevent fraud
but allow the market to
continue to drive us
towards the desirable
ends of accurate
registration and
efficient use.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Since
the /19 is the threshold
number of sorts for
flipping, I could accept
a /20 as the maximum
size.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">I
think a 2 year wait is
reasonable, but I don’t
see the additional
benefit as worth the
distinction of ARIN
space into more classes.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">And
making it more
complicated with
multiple waiting periods
is even less desirable,
IMO.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Regards,<br>
Mike</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
<<a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday,
May 29, 2019 10:50
AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span><a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml] Waiting
List IPv4 blocks
transferred after
issuance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">On
29/05/2019 11:31, Mike
Burns wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Orgs
will wait out any
period, sitting with
unused addresses until
they reach the resale
date. Not efficient
use.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9pt">If
it's not a legacy
resource and if ARIN
gets to know about
it, it may just
recover this
addresses even if
the resource holder
is paying it
correctly. That's
how it should work.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">People
will lease unused
addresses to others
and Whois accuracy
will suffer if they
can’t resell them. Not
accurate registration.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9pt">If
people lease they
prove they have no
use for the
addresses and again
ARIN should recover
them at any time. If
whois is inaccurate,
well it is their
fault and not
policies fault. They
must bind to the
current rules not
the other way round.</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">I
think we should give
everybody currently on
the list up to a /19
and then restrict new
entries to a /22.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Fair
to discuss this
scenario, although I
still think /19 is too
much. Agree on /22 for
new entries.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">I
think a 5 year resale
wait is too long,
based on the paltry
resales of prior
waiting-list subnets
smaller than /19.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">It
may be long, but 2 years
seems a little short and
'acceptable' for a
fraudster. Perhaps
something in between.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">I
support a /22
restriction for new
entrants, a /19 max
for current list
members, and
maintenance of the 12
month wait for
simplicity’s sake.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">What
about discuss /22 for
new entrants, /20 for
current list members and
36, 42 or 48 months for
transfers ? Seems more
reasonable in my view
and cover most aspects
of this discussion.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Regards,<br>
Mike</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML<span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span><a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="colour"
style="color:purple"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></span></a><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday,
May 29, 2019 8:51
AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span><a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="colour"
style="color:purple">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml]
Waiting List IPv4
blocks transferred
after issuance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"><span
class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9pt">+1</span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">On
28/05/2019 23:52,
Owen DeLong wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Mike,<span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Yes and no. I believe that the lack of
legacy holders for
any blocks issued
under 4.1.8
reduces the need
for the market.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Defunct organizations can easily be
reclaimed in this
space because they
stop paying their
ARIN bill.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Eliminating the resale value of these
addresses won’t
really encourage
squatting on them
and limiting the
size of
organization and
size of block that
can benefit from
4.1.8 further
helps to reduce
the potential for
hoarding.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">I realize that as a broker, any address
that can’t be
monetized is a
lost opportunity
for your
organization, but
I think there’s
plenty of
addresses out
there that haven’t
been processed
through 4.1.8, so
I don’t think
limiting the
resale potential
of such blocks to
reduce fraud is a
bad idea.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white">Owen</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight"
style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">On May 28, 2019, at
12:46 , Mike
Burns <<a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="colour"
style="color:purple">mike@iptrading.com</span></a>> wrote:</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">The percentages of
blocks
transferred
takes a
significant
leap at the
/19 size.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">Below that, the
percentages
are all below
7%.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">At /19 and above, the
percentages
are all above
21%.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">Seems like a natural
demarcation
for maximum
block size,
but prices do
continue to
rise.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">While we want to fight
fraud, we
should still
remember the
underlying
reasons for
the Ipv4
transfer
market apply
to these
addresses as
well.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">That is, the market
provides
incentives for
efficient use
and accurate
registration.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">Regards,<br>
Mike</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in;">
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
<<a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="colour"
style="color:rgb(149, 79, 114)">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Curran<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
May 28, 2019
1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
List <<a
target="_blank"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
class="colour"
style="color:rgb(149, 79, 114)">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>[arin-ppml]
Waiting List
IPv4 blocks
transferred
after issuance<br>
<b>Importance:</b><span
class="x_1125712014gmail-m_-5103199404380489074gmail-m_-813816542738712748apple-converted-space"> </span>High</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">Folks - </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">It occurred to me that
it might be
useful to have
a quick
summary of
waiting list
blocks issued
and
subsequently
transferred. </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;"
class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">Attached is the
distribution
(count per
prefix size)
of all blocks
that have been
issued via
ARIN's waiting
list policy
and
subsequently
transferred
via NRPM
8.2/8.3/8.4
policy.</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">FYI,</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">/John</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">John Curran</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">President and CEO</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white">American Registry for
Internet
Numbers</span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><image001.png></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
style="background-image:
initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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initial;
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class="MsoNormal"><span
class="highlight" style="background-color:white"><span class="font"
style="font-family:Helvetica,
sans-serif"><span
class="size"
style="font-size:9pt">_______________________________________________<br>
ARIN-PPML<br>
You are
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<pre style="background:white;">_______________________________________________
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