<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 2, 2019, at 08:48 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="ES-TRAD" style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="ES-TRAD" style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">El 2/5/19 17:39, "ARIN-PPML en nombre de Nicolas Antoniello" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>en nombre de<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:nantoniello@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">nantoniello@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">ARIN (and so the other RIRs like LACNIC) are doing things to combat the problem more effectively, like fostering RPKI deployment and so... but police stuff remains (and I think it must remain) out of the scope of RIRs.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">As said before, I’m fine if the RIRs don’t want to take actions, but they must have clear rules (policy text) that allows the victims to claim by other means if they wish. This is a way for the RIR to not get involved, but still facilitate the protection of the member’s rights.</span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>There are already laws in the US that cover the cases ARIN could take action on.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>ARIN policy doesn’t carry the force of law, so walking into court and saying “This person hijacked my ARIN space and that’s a violation of ARIN policy” isn’t all that likely to add anything useful to the process.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I’m loathe to predict what courts will do and I’m not a lawyer, but my guess is that whether or not hijacking is against ARIN policy isn’t going to have much impact either way on the case in question.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It will be interesting to see if we get a test case, whether the judge will consider ARIN registration to be sufficient to support any sort of claim against a hijacker. However, in order to guarantee that the court would do so, you’d need a civil code statute or a criminal law, not an ARIN policy.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Until there’s some form of legal precedent that ARIN registration conveys exclusive right to use on the internet by law, it’s merely a gentlemen’s agreement among cooperating parties.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nicolas<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">El jue., 2 de may. de 2019 a la(s) 09:19, Adam Thompson (<a href="mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">athompson@merlin.mb.ca</a>) escribió:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class="">Instead of focusing on whether the current proposal is or isn’t in scope, I suggest we re-cast the discussion as follows:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><p class="gmail-m-1744599297797099064msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 71.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span lang="EN-CA" class=""><span class="">1.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-CA" class="">So far, we have unanimous community agreement that BGP hijacking is bad.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-1744599297797099064msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 71.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span lang="EN-CA" class=""><span class="">2.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-CA" class="">So far, we have broad agreement that “something ought to be done” about BGP hijacking, although detailed opinions vary significantly.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-1744599297797099064msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 71.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span lang="EN-CA" class=""><span class="">3.<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-CA" class="">So what (else)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><u class="">can</u></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN do about it? (Caveat: the answer “<i class="">nothing</i>” is unacceptable to a significant proportion of PPML participants.)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class="">My suggested direction to the AC and/or the board would therefore be: <b class=""><i class=""><u class="">Find</u></i></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>something ARIN can do to help combat the problem (more effectively). If this requires expanding the scope of ARIN’s operations or policies, bring that back to the membership (possibly via PPML?) with the accompanying financial & legal analysis, as usual.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class="">Now the question becomes: what is the most appropriate mechanism, within ARIN’s existing policies, to bring a request like that to the AC and/or Board? It seems clear to me that the petition already underway here is not meeting, and will not meet, the needs of the community very well.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class="">-Adam<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Adam Thompson</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><br class="">Consultant, Infrastructure Services<br class=""><b class=""><span id="cid:image001.png@01D5010F.44C02D00"><image001.png></span></b><br class="">100 - 135 Innovation Drive<br class="">Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8<br class="">(204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)<br class=""><a href="mailto:athompson@merlin.mb.ca" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">athompson@merlin.mb.ca</span></a><br class=""><a href="http://www.merlin.mb.ca/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">www.merlin.mb.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-CA" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">ARIN-PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class=""><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">info@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________ ARIN-PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>). 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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">**********************************************</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">IPv4 is over</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Are you ready for the new Internet ?</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; 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