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--></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In any members association, the association is legitimated to act against members that don’t follow the rules.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It is not a matter of “police”, nobody is asking the RIR to be the Internet police as some folks stated in this discussion (here or in other lists). Saying that is basically diverting the discussion to a different place: We can’t do anything, so we ask the governments to legislate over Internet because we aren’t capable of self-regulate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It is a matter of 1) the rights of members and 2) the obligations of the association with the members.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Even if you don’t have 2) above, members can scale it to LEA/courts. However, not having those rights explicitly worded out, may preclude LEA, courts, etc., to take actions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Having specific wording will *<b>immediately</b>* allow courts and judicial experts, to confirm that it was against the rules of the association. Done.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Again, it may differ a bit in the laws from country to country (I doubt it will be too much anyway). I’m speaking from what I know, not being a lawyer, but with some experience in dealing with courts and cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><br>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 2/5/19 18:27, "ARIN-PPML en nombre de Nicolas Antoniello" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> en nombre de <a href="mailto:nantoniello@gmail.com">nantoniello@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The missing link in your assertion is that for the former you have police (and other bodies) to enforce them... and for BGP you have only good will :)<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El jue., 2 de may. de 2019 a la(s) 10:37, Fernando Frediani (<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>) escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The same way the existence of laws stating certain practices are wrong and forbidden doesn't stop people from committing crimes.<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Fernando<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On 02/05/2019 12:33, Nicolas Antoniello wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Jordi, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>As I´ve mentioned @ LACNIC discussions regarding this policy: the existence of a statement in ARIN policy manual saying that something like this is "bad" is not going to make anyone go to do it in another place. And so, it's not going to prevent any BGP bad practice (not the ones made on purpose neither the accidental ones).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Nicolas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El jue., 2 de may. de 2019 a la(s) 09:03, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML (<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>) escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br>El 2/5/19 15:50, "<a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>> escribió:<br><br><br><br> On Thu, 2 May 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br><br> > Hi Albert,<br> ><br> > El 2/5/19 15:02, "<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> en nombre de <a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> en nombre de <a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>> escribió:<br> ><br> > On Thu, 2 May 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br> ><br> > >2. CONDITIONS OF SERVICE<br> > ><br> > >(1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number<br> > >Resources within the ARIN database;<br> > >(2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN<br> > >database;<br> ><br> ><br> > This above kinda sums up the issue. My understanding is this language<br> > comes from the RSA.<br> ><br> > While the document grants the right to be the registrant and use the<br> > "Included Number Resources", other language stating that you cannot use<br> > someone elses number resources without the permission of the registrant of<br> > those OTHER resources is missing from the RSA. That is what needs fixing.<br> ><br> > Of course, it is not easy to amend the RSA. Therefore it is being<br> > advanced to add the BGP hijacking language to the NRPM, which each ARIN<br> > RSA signer has also agreed to follow.<br> ><br> > If the language is added to the NRPM and the hijacker is an ARIN RSA<br> > signer, enforcement could be up to and including the revoke of all ARIN<br> > resources. However, all the worldwide resources are NOT assigned to ARIN,<br> > therefore nothing can really be done by ARIN in these cases where the<br> > hijacker is NOT an ARIN member.<br> ><br> > As a result, the Advisory Committee declared it totally out of scope, even<br> > though it does appear in scope if the hijacking is being done by an ARIN<br> > RSA signer.<br> ><br> > Unless this conflict can be solved, it is out of scope, at least when it<br> > would be applied to non ARIN RSA signers. However, I think it is in scope<br> > when hijacking of ARIN assigned resources occur by an ARIN RSA signer.<br> ><br> > When a policy proposal is sent to a specific RIR, I understand that if finally, that results, thru the PDP, in a policy, will be only in scope of the members of that RIR.<br> ><br> > That's why, we have two ways of doing it:<br> > 1) A global policy, which requires same text reach consensus in all the 5 RIRs (and it may be more difficult and slower to achieve), or<br> > 2) An equivalent policy in each of the 5 RIRs, which is the path we decided for this specific policy proposal.<br> ><br> > So, I don't see a "conflict" in that aspect, just part of the process, and as you say, a proposal can't be declared out-of-scope because "it will only apply" to this or that region.<br> ><br> > When I've observed similar problems in the policy manuals of different regions, I always tried to follow the same path, and most of the time, it works, because even having different "cultures", we all work in the same Internet.<br> ><br> > Regards,<br> > Jordi<br> ><br> The only potential issue is that the policy adopted in each region must <br> apply to ALL BGP Hijacking, not just the region involved. Otherwise the <br> bad actors will simply choose to hijack numbers in a different region to <br> avoid the policy.<br><br>And that's probably a good thing. If one region doesn't adopt this policy, versus others adopting it, then hijackers will try to operate under that region, and I guess that means the "quality" of service of the regions that don't adopt it decreases, and that may turn the community into a different view of it.<br><br> Also, I assume we are mostly discussing hijacking of IPv4 resources, much <br> of which are clearly related to their short supply. I am unaware of any <br> real effort currently being made to hijack IPv6 resources.<br><br>The proposal covers "any" resource hijacking (IPv4, IPv6 and ASN). The fact that IPv6 is not being hijacked know, doesn't means that we can't prevent it to be covered by a policy proposal.<br><br> Albert Erdmann<br> Network Administrator<br> Paradise On Line Inc.<br><br><br><br><br>**********************************************<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>ARIN-PPML<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________ ARIN-PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues. <o:p></o:p></p></div><br>**********************************************<br>
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