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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/05/2019 13:38, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Having specific wording will *<b>immediately</b>*
allow courts and judicial experts, to confirm that it was
against the rules of the association. Done.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<p>Exactly ! I think that's a very import point to take in mind and
focus about this discussion.</p>
<p>As it was already said in another message I understand the
authors, if this doesn't reach consensus, are fine to either have
a simpler proposal stating this clearly so future affected people
can have better guarantees to scale these cases out of the RIR
like to the court. The only thing that doesn't seem reasonable to
have is nothing.<br>
</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1DC08B5E-793C-480B-9641-3D1B93CD0592@consulintel.es">
<div class="WordSection1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 2/5/19
18:27, "ARIN-PPML en nombre de Nicolas Antoniello" <<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> en
nombre de <a href="mailto:nantoniello@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">nantoniello@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">The missing
link in your assertion is that for the former you have
police (and other bodies) to enforce them... and for BGP you
have only good will :)<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El jue., 2
de may. de 2019 a la(s) 10:37, Fernando Frediani (<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>)
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">The same way the existence
of laws stating certain practices are wrong and
forbidden doesn't stop people from committing crimes.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:35.4pt">Fernando<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On
02/05/2019 12:33, Nicolas Antoniello wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Jordi,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">As
I´ve mentioned @ LACNIC discussions regarding this
policy: the existence of a statement in ARIN
policy manual saying that something like this is
"bad" is not going to make anyone go to do it in
another place. And so, it's not going to prevent
any BGP bad practice (not the ones made on purpose
neither the accidental ones).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Nicolas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El
jue., 2 de may. de 2019 a la(s) 09:03, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML (<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>)
escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
El 2/5/19 15:50, "<a
href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>"
<<a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>>
escribió:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, 2 May 2019, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi Albert,<br>
><br>
> El 2/5/19 15:02, "<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
en nombre de <a
href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>"
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
en nombre de <a
href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>>
escribió:<br>
><br>
> On Thu, 2 May 2019, JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
><br>
> >2. CONDITIONS OF SERVICE<br>
> ><br>
> >(1) The exclusive right to be the
registrant of the Included Number<br>
> >Resources within the ARIN
database;<br>
> >(2) The right to use the Included
Number Resources within the ARIN<br>
> >database;<br>
><br>
><br>
> This above kinda sums up the issue.
My understanding is this language<br>
> comes from the RSA.<br>
><br>
> While the document grants the right to
be the registrant and use the<br>
> "Included Number Resources", other
language stating that you cannot use<br>
> someone elses number resources without
the permission of the registrant of<br>
> those OTHER resources is missing from
the RSA. That is what needs fixing.<br>
><br>
> Of course, it is not easy to amend the
RSA. Therefore it is being<br>
> advanced to add the BGP hijacking
language to the NRPM, which each ARIN<br>
> RSA signer has also agreed to follow.<br>
><br>
> If the language is added to the NRPM
and the hijacker is an ARIN RSA<br>
> signer, enforcement could be up to and
including the revoke of all ARIN<br>
> resources. However, all the worldwide
resources are NOT assigned to ARIN,<br>
> therefore nothing can really be done
by ARIN in these cases where the<br>
> hijacker is NOT an ARIN member.<br>
><br>
> As a result, the Advisory Committee
declared it totally out of scope, even<br>
> though it does appear in scope if the
hijacking is being done by an ARIN<br>
> RSA signer.<br>
><br>
> Unless this conflict can be solved, it
is out of scope, at least when it<br>
> would be applied to non ARIN RSA
signers. However, I think it is in scope<br>
> when hijacking of ARIN assigned
resources occur by an ARIN RSA signer.<br>
><br>
> When a policy proposal is sent to a
specific RIR, I understand that if finally, that
results, thru the PDP, in a policy, will be only
in scope of the members of that RIR.<br>
><br>
> That's why, we have two ways of doing it:<br>
> 1) A global policy, which requires same
text reach consensus in all the 5 RIRs (and it may
be more difficult and slower to achieve), or<br>
> 2) An equivalent policy in each of the 5
RIRs, which is the path we decided for this
specific policy proposal.<br>
><br>
> So, I don't see a "conflict" in that
aspect, just part of the process, and as you say,
a proposal can't be declared out-of-scope because
"it will only apply" to this or that region.<br>
><br>
> When I've observed similar problems in
the policy manuals of different regions, I always
tried to follow the same path, and most of the
time, it works, because even having different
"cultures", we all work in the same Internet.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Jordi<br>
><br>
The only potential issue is that the policy
adopted in each region must <br>
apply to ALL BGP Hijacking, not just the
region involved. Otherwise the <br>
bad actors will simply choose to hijack
numbers in a different region to <br>
avoid the policy.<br>
<br>
And that's probably a good thing. If one region
doesn't adopt this policy, versus others adopting
it, then hijackers will try to operate under that
region, and I guess that means the "quality" of
service of the regions that don't adopt it
decreases, and that may turn the community into a
different view of it.<br>
<br>
Also, I assume we are mostly discussing
hijacking of IPv4 resources, much <br>
of which are clearly related to their short
supply. I am unaware of any <br>
real effort currently being made to hijack
IPv6 resources.<br>
<br>
The proposal covers "any" resource hijacking
(IPv4, IPv6 and ASN). The fact that IPv6 is not
being hijacked know, doesn't means that we can't
prevent it to be covered by a policy proposal.<br>
<br>
Albert Erdmann<br>
Network Administrator<br>
Paradise On Line Inc.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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