<div dir="auto">I support the intent of both policies.<div dir="auto">Rudi Daniel</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 3, 2019, 15:38 <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-request@arin.net">arin-ppml-request@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4 IPv4 Request<br>
Requirements (Chris Woodfield)<br>
2. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4 IPv4 Request<br>
Requirements (Scott Leibrand)<br>
3. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4 IPv4 Request<br>
Requirements (Joel Large)<br>
4. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-2: Waiting List Block Size<br>
Restriction (Scott Leibrand)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 10:02:35 -0800<br>
From: Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>><br>
To: Tom Fantacone <<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tom@iptrading.com</a>><br>
Cc: hostmaster <<a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a>>, arin-ppml<br>
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4<br>
IPv4 Request Requirements<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1D353DEB-BDF2-45DD-B2FD-89E8C3690583@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">1D353DEB-BDF2-45DD-B2FD-89E8C3690583@semihuman.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
<br>
Hi Tom - responses inline.<br>
<br>
One additional point - the current policy places a limit on how often an organization can receive resources from the waiting list. This draft changes the hold-down timer so that it now applies to *applications* for new allocations under the waiting list policy, not the receipt of resources from it.<br>
<br>
> On Mar 3, 2019, at 7:18 AM, Tom Fantacone <<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tom@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Chris,<br>
> <br>
> The "clarification" part of your proposal seems to be a no brainer (the waiting period is meant to apply to allocations only under section 4). I assume ARIN staff is already interpreting it this way since that was the intent of the section. So I wouldn't sever it unless the full policy doesn't gain support in which case we could revisit just inserting the clarification part.<br>
> <br>
<br>
That assumption is my understanding as well.<br>
<br>
> Regarding this:<br>
> "- Disallows organizations that have transferred space to other parties within the past 12 months from applying for additional IPv4 space under NRPM Section 4. "<br>
> <br>
> I want to make sure I understand it correctly. If you transfer out space via 8.2/8.3/8.4, does this restriction mean you just can't receive space via the waiting list for 12 months, or via any mechanism (waiting list/transfer) for 12 months? I think it means from the waiting list only, but want to be sure.<br>
> <br>
<br>
That is correct - note the phrase ?...under this section...? in the proposal text. <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
-Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
> Tom<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ---- On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 13:48:01 -0500 Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>> wrote ----<br>
> <br>
> Speaking as the policy author, I?ll make two points:<br>
> <br>
> 1. I?m aware that given the other discussions around waiting list policy that are ongoing, this proposal may well be rendered moot by future policy changes. I still believe that this is worth pursuing as there?s a current need for clarification and increased disincentives for bad behavior today.<br>
> 2. I?m deliberately killing two not-terribly-related birds with one stone with this proposal, based on the fact that the two issues noted from the PER can be addressed by adding language to the same NRPM text. Happy to consider severing them if the community prefers.<br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> <br>
> -Chris<br>
> <br>
> > On Mar 2, 2019, at 9:33 AM, <a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > I think it is time to start the ball on the other policies.<br>
> > <br>
> > +1 on this. It seems focused on those gathering resources to resell.<br>
> > <br>
> > Albert Erdmann<br>
> > Network Administrator<br>
> > Paradise On Line Inc.<br>
> t <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 10:52:41 -0800<br>
From: Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>><br>
Cc: Tom Fantacone <<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tom@iptrading.com</a>>, arin-ppml <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4<br>
IPv4 Request Requirements<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:056723A7-2403-4F03-A29C-DD5E3D610EF1@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">056723A7-2403-4F03-A29C-DD5E3D610EF1@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
<br>
Thanks for clarifying that, Chris. I support this draft policy proposal: forcing applicants to wait to get into line for free space will at least slow down any attempts to make money off the free pool via the waiting list. <br>
<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
> On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hi Tom - responses inline.<br>
> <br>
> One additional point - the current policy places a limit on how often an organization can receive resources from the waiting list. This draft changes the hold-down timer so that it now applies to *applications* for new allocations under the waiting list policy, not the receipt of resources from it.<br>
> <br>
>> On Mar 3, 2019, at 7:18 AM, Tom Fantacone <<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tom@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> Chris,<br>
>> <br>
>> The "clarification" part of your proposal seems to be a no brainer (the waiting period is meant to apply to allocations only under section 4). I assume ARIN staff is already interpreting it this way since that was the intent of the section. So I wouldn't sever it unless the full policy doesn't gain support in which case we could revisit just inserting the clarification part.<br>
>> <br>
> <br>
> That assumption is my understanding as well.<br>
> <br>
>> Regarding this:<br>
>> "- Disallows organizations that have transferred space to other parties within the past 12 months from applying for additional IPv4 space under NRPM Section 4. "<br>
>> <br>
>> I want to make sure I understand it correctly. If you transfer out space via 8.2/8.3/8.4, does this restriction mean you just can't receive space via the waiting list for 12 months, or via any mechanism (waiting list/transfer) for 12 months? I think it means from the waiting list only, but want to be sure.<br>
>> <br>
> <br>
> That is correct - note the phrase ?...under this section...? in the proposal text. <br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> <br>
> -Chris<br>
> <br>
> <br>
>> Tom<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> ---- On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 13:48:01 -0500 Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>> wrote ----<br>
>> <br>
>> Speaking as the policy author, I?ll make two points:<br>
>> <br>
>> 1. I?m aware that given the other discussions around waiting list policy that are ongoing, this proposal may well be rendered moot by future policy changes. I still believe that this is worth pursuing as there?s a current need for clarification and increased disincentives for bad behavior today.<br>
>> 2. I?m deliberately killing two not-terribly-related birds with one stone with this proposal, based on the fact that the two issues noted from the PER can be addressed by adding language to the same NRPM text. Happy to consider severing them if the community prefers.<br>
>> <br>
>> Thanks,<br>
>> <br>
>> -Chris<br>
>> <br>
>>> On Mar 2, 2019, at 9:33 AM, <a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a> wrote:<br>
>>> <br>
>>> I think it is time to start the ball on the other policies.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> +1 on this. It seems focused on those gathering resources to resell.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Albert Erdmann<br>
>>> Network Administrator<br>
>>> Paradise On Line Inc.<br>
>> t <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> <a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2019 13:58:22 -0500<br>
From: Joel Large <<a href="mailto:jlarge@glwb.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jlarge@glwb.net</a>><br>
To: Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>>, Chris Woodfield<br>
<<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>><br>
Cc: arin-ppml <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4<br>
IPv4 Request Requirements<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20190303185829.2313F1042C74@smtp1.arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">20190303185829.2313F1042C74@smtp1.arin.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I agree anything to curb this practice.? The fact we are asked to justify the need for the IPV4 space and people are getting them falsely needing them is frustrating.?Joel LargeGeneral ManagerGLW Broadband Inc.440 926 3230Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone<br>
-------- Original message --------From: Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>> Date: 3/3/19 1:52 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>> Cc: arin-ppml <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-1: Clarify Section 4 IPv4<br>
? Request Requirements Thanks for clarifying that, Chris. I support this draft policy proposal: forcing applicants to wait to get into line for free space will at least slow down any attempts to make money off the free pool via the waiting list. Scott> On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>> wrote:> > Hi Tom - responses inline.> > One additional point - the current policy places a limit on how often an organization can receive resources from the waiting list. This draft changes the hold-down timer so that it now applies to *applications* for new allocations under the waiting list policy, not the receipt of resources from it.> >> On Mar 3, 2019, at 7:18 AM, Tom Fantacone <<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">tom@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:>> >> Chris,>> >> The "clarification" part of your proposal seems to be a no brainer (the waiting period is meant to apply to allocations only under section 4).? I assume ARIN staff is already interpreting it this way since that was the intent of the section<br>
.? So I wouldn't sever it unless the full policy doesn't gain support in which case we could revisit just inserting the clarification part.>> > > That assumption is my understanding as well.> >> Regarding this:>> "- Disallows organizations that have transferred space to other parties within the past 12 months from applying for additional IPv4 space under NRPM Section 4. ">> >> I want to make sure I understand it correctly.? If you transfer out space via 8.2/8.3/8.4, does this restriction mean you just can't receive space via the waiting list for 12 months, or via any mechanism (waiting list/transfer) for 12 months?? I think it means from the waiting list only, but want to be sure.>> > > That is correct - note the phrase ?...under this section...? in the proposal text. > > Thanks,> > -Chris> > >> Tom>> >> >> >> ---- On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 13:48:01 -0500 Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">chris@semihuman.com</a>> wrote ---->> >> Speaking as the policy author, I?ll make two points:>> >> 1. I?m aware th<br>
at given the other discussions around waiting list policy that are ongoing, this proposal may well be rendered moot by future policy changes. I still believe that this is worth pursuing as there?s a current need for clarification and increased disincentives for bad behavior today.>> 2. I?m deliberately killing two not-terribly-related birds with one stone with this proposal, based on the fact that the two issues noted from the PER can be addressed by adding language to the same NRPM text. Happy to consider severing them if the community prefers.>> >> Thanks,>> >> -Chris>> >>> On Mar 2, 2019, at 9:33 AM, <a href="mailto:hostmaster@uneedus.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">hostmaster@uneedus.com</a> wrote:>>> >>> I think it is time to start the ball on the other policies.>>> >>> +1 on this. It seems focused on those gathering resources to resell.>>> >>> Albert Erdmann>>> Network Administrator>>> Paradise On Line Inc.>> t <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.>> >> > > _______________________________________________> ARIN-PPML> You are receivin<br>
g this message because you are subscribed to> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:> <a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues._______________________________________________ARIN-PPMLYou are receiving this message because you are subscribed tothe ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppmlPlease" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppmlPlease</a> contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 11:37:42 -0800<br>
From: Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ARIN <<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-2: Waiting List Block<br>
Size Restriction<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:F8BAF292-CD8B-4379-A119-24120A11D116@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">F8BAF292-CD8B-4379-A119-24120A11D116@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
<br>
I support Draft Policy ARIN-2019-2. IMO limiting waiting list recipients to a /22 is a reasonable approach that somewhat reduces the gains for fraudulent activity, and ensures that ARIN can serve more legitimate requests for each block it reclaims/receives. Organizations needing more than a /22 should be getting it from the transfer market anyway, so I don?t see much downside to such a restriction on waiting list allocations. <br>
<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
> On Feb 26, 2019, at 9:49 AM, ARIN <<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">info@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> On 21 February 2019, the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted "ARIN-prop-261: Waiting List Block Size Restriction" as a Draft Policy.<br>
> <br>
> Draft Policy ARIN-2019-2 is below and can be found at:<br>
> <a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2019_2.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2019_2.html</a><br>
> <br>
> You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated in the Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these principles are:<br>
> <br>
> * Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration<br>
> * Technically Sound<br>
> * Supported by the Community<br>
> <br>
> The PDP can be found at:<br>
> <a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html</a><br>
> <br>
> Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at:<br>
> <a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html</a><br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> <br>
> Sean Hopkins<br>
> Policy Analyst<br>
> American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Draft Policy ARIN-2019-2: Waiting List Block Size Restriction<br>
> <br>
> Problem Statement:<br>
> <br>
> A substantial amount of misuse of the waiting list is suspected by ARIN staff. A significant percentage of organizations that receive blocks from the waiting list subsequently issue these blocks to other organizations via 8.3 or 8.4 transfers shortly after the one year waiting period required before engaging in such outbound transfers. Most of these cases involve larger-sized blocks, and many involve organizations that already have large IPv4 holdings. Some organizations engage in this practice multiple times, rejoining the waiting list shortly after transferring out blocks previously received on the waiting list. There are even cases of multiple startup organizations requesting approval to be placed on the waiting list where these organizations' requests can all be tracked originating from the same IP address. While it is possible that some of these cases are legitimate, and while it is difficult for ARIN to prove fraud in most individual cases, the large number of cases l<br>
ike these indicates a high likelihood that there is significant misuse of the waiting list. Specifically, some organizations are likely being dishonest in projecting their need for IPv4 space with the intent of receiving blocks off the waiting list so that they can sell them one year after receiving them. In the case of multiple startups, some organizations that receive blocks on the waiting list subsequently perform a 8.2 merger/acquisition, allowing them to sell the blocks even before the one year waiting period.<br>
> <br>
> The problem is serious enough that the ARIN Board of Trustees has suspended issuance of number resources while a solution to this problem is found, and it is unfair to organizations with legitimate need on the waiting list that they are being crowded out and delayed by those looking to game the system.<br>
> <br>
> Policy Statement:<br>
> <br>
> Actual Text:<br>
> <br>
> 4.1.8. Unmet requests<br>
> <br>
> In the event that ARIN does not have a contiguous block of addresses of sufficient size to fulfill a qualified request, ARIN will provide the requesting organization with the option to specify the smallest block size they'd be willing to accept, equal to or larger than the applicable minimum size specified elsewhere in ARIN policy. If such a smaller block is available, ARIN will fulfill the request with the largest single block available that fulfills the request. If no such block is available, the organization will be provided the option to be placed on a waiting list of pre-qualified recipients, listing both the block size qualified for and the smallest block size acceptable.<br>
> <br>
> New Text:<br>
> <br>
> 4.1.8. Unmet requests<br>
> <br>
> In the event that ARIN does not have a contiguous block of addresses of sufficient size to fulfill a qualified request, ARIN will provide the requesting organization with the option to specify the smallest block size they'd be willing to accept, equal to or larger than the applicable minimum size specified elsewhere in ARIN policy. If such a smaller block is available, ARIN will fulfill the request with the largest single block available that fulfills the request. If no such block is available, the organization will be provided the option to be placed on a waiting list of pre-qualified recipients, listing both the block size qualified for or a /22, whichever is smaller, and the smallest block size acceptable, not to exceed a /22.<br>
> <br>
> Comments:<br>
> <br>
> Timeframe for Implementation: Immediate<br>
> <br>
> Anything Else: By limiting the maximum block size for waiting list recipients to a /22, the financial incentive to misuse the waiting list to receive blocks with the intent to sell them will be drastically reduced. The majority of waiting list requests are for smaller block sizes, and these requests will be more readily met as the abusers will no longer be crowding out the legitimate organizations with need. The original intent of the waiting list to help smaller organizations and new entrants will be realized. RIPE, APNIC and LACNIC do not have waiting lists, but they each have an emergency pool geared toward new recipients with a /22 limit which has largely curtailed abuse. Organizations that genuinely qualify for larger blocks can still obtain these in the marketplace through 8.3 transfers.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
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</blockquote></div>