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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>I stand corrected, but you must acknowledge the nearly 200 successful ASN transfers intra-regionally in APNIC as evidence that the need to transfer ASNs exists. We don’t need to posit hypotheticals for that, just look at the log of ASN transfers. Now we are just considering the source, and short ASNs are more prevalent in ARIN and RIPE than in APNIC.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>APNIC and RIPE did the heavy lifting of establishing the processes at the RIRs to move ASNs as they now move IPv4 blocks. Clearly those communities also recognized some need for this policy.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I believe we have established that the need for ASN transfers exists, can somebody give us the downside of enacting this policy? Are we afraid that the short ASNs, which we say nobody really needs, will escape North America? Are we afraid to add a few short words to the NRPM? Are we afraid that ARIN’s crackerjack staff won’t survive the onslaught?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>As a reminder, stewards should govern with the lightest touch, responding to the needs of the community. The community is asking for this, has been for years, why not do it? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Mike<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 13, 2018 7:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com><br><b>Cc:</b> Steven Ryerse <SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com>; ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml@arin.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-2018-1: Allow Inter-regional ASN Transfers<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Correction…<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>APNIC and RIPE already have policy to support this process with no utilization.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Aug 13, 2018, at 16:03 , Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><br>I support the policy and note that:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>The costs to implement are practically zero.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Some community members have requested this ability, who are we to gainsay their reasons?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>The changes to the NRPM are tiny and discrete.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>No downsides to the implementation this policy have been offered in any comments, if the need is tiny, so is ARIN staff time expended.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>APNIC and RIPE are already engaged in this process with no ill effects.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div id="Zm-_Id_-Sgn1"><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>---- On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 19:00:28 -0400 <b>Steven Ryerse <</b></span><a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com"><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</span></b></a><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>></span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>wrote ----<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 5.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>+1<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=colour><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Steven Ryerse</span></i></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>President</span></i></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338</span></i></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>770.656.1460 - Cell</span></i></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>770.399.9099 - Office</span></i></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=font><i><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>770.392.0076 - Fax</span></i></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=colour><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><1.jpg></span></span><span class=size><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:#1F497D'>℠</span></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span></span><span class=font><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span class=size><sup><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup></span><span class=size><sup><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>℠</span></sup></span><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>ARIN-PPML <</span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Scott Leibrand<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Sent:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Monday, August 13, 2018 6:52 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>To:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Job Snijders <</span><a href="mailto:job@ntt.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>job@ntt.net</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Cc:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>ARIN-PPML List <</span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Subject:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-2018-1: Allow Inter-regional ASN Transfers<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>If you operate a network with peering sessions, and you are forced to renumber your ASN, you either need to convince all of your peers to set up new sessions (which can be a lot of work, and usually means at least some of them will refuse/fail to do so), or you need to local-as prepend the old ASN onto your new one, resulting in a longer AS path over that session. Both outcomes are disruptive to a network's ability to maintain peering.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Given that there are valid technical and business justifications for needing to keep the same ASN on a network whose locus of control switches continents, I believe it is appropriate to allow organizations who need to do so to transfer administrative control of their ASN between RIRs, and therefore support this draft policy.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>While it is certainly possible for some networks to easily renumber their ASN, that is not true of all networks, for valid technical reasons. I therefore do not find arguments of the "I've never needed to do that" or "I can't imagine why someone would need to do that" informative or convincing. To my mind, the only argument that would justify opposing ASN transfers would be one that details how such transfers would be burdensome to the RIRs or to the Internet community more generally, and would further show that such burden is greater than the benefit to those organizations it would help. As I, Job, and others have detailed the kind of organization that would be benefited by this proposal, it's not sufficient to assert that such organization do not (or should not) exist.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>-Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 3:36 PM Job Snijders <</span><a href="mailto:job@ntt.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>job@ntt.net</span></a><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 at 01:23, Larry Ash <</span><a href="mailto:lar@mwtcorp.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>lar@mwtcorp.net</span></a><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 14:47:09 -0700<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> Owen DeLong <</span><a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>owen@delong.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>> On Aug 13, 2018, at 14:42 , Job Snijders <</span><a href="mailto:job@ntt.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:purple'>job@ntt.net</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>> I agree with the proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>> I think this proposal is needed and addresses practical concerns: the alternative to transfers is “renumbering”, and renumbering<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>>ASNs is a very costly and operationally risky proposition. There is no upside to restricting or forbidding this type of resource<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>>transfer.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>> A question that remains: if you don’t want to transfer your ASN in or out of ARIN, then don’t, but why forbid others from doing<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>>>it? All resources should be transferable.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>> We can agree to disagree.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I agree with Owen, I just can't see a burning need. Renumbering seems to be a bugaboo that is just not that difficult.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Even if you don’t see a need, would you want to preclude others from transferring their resource if they concluded it is a requirement for their business operation?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I would think the transfer of the ASN would as costly, difficult and risky as migrating the resources onto a new ASN.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I’m puzzled by your statement. Renumbering an ASN may involve operations on hundreds of routers and tens of thousands of BGP sessions - such renumbering clearly is costly and operationally risky.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Transferring a resource from one RIR to another RIR is paperwork between RIRs - no router changes. A transfer and a renumbering don’t seem comparable at all. Do you consider IPv4 transfers costly and risky too?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Job<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>ARIN-PPML<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed 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