<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Hi Mike,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div>I’d consider it very poor argument to promote a policy proposal solely based on its adoption in other RIRs. Various RIRs, and the regions they represent, often have unique, and sometimes conflicting requirements for management of internet resources, and as such we should be evaluating proposals on their merits. Adoption by other RIRs is one input for consideration, but should never be the primary input.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The Policy Development Process requires that the proposal in question present a clear problem statement and come to a consensus as a community that the language being proposed solves that statement. As such, we must carefully consider both the problem statement, *and* the policy language proposed. This is the main motivation for the discussions you’re seeing re: the problem statement itself; we simply can’t adopt a policy based on a non-specific problem, and a simple apparent lack of downsides of adopting the proposed edit to the NRPM. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As such, on the PPML we’ve seen several viable justifications for this proposal; I’d expect at least one, if not both, to eventually find its way into a modified problem statement, and once that’s done, we can discuss the proposal itself as to whether or not it solves the issue as proposed and the relative merits and costs thereof.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hope this helps,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div>-Chris</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 1, 2018, at 8:57 AM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" class="">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: HelveticaNeue; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hello,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The transfer logs at APNIC and RIPE indicate that inter-regional transfers have been completed.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I consider that objective evidence of need for this functionality.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Can somebody provide a downside to the approval of this policy?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Staff work? The heavy lifting has already been provided by APNIC and RIPE.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Is it important for us to determine every possible reason why people need this functionality?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Shouldn’t our default position be trying to answer their need unless there is a reason not to?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Mike<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" class="">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Owen DeLong<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:40 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>WOOD Alison * DAS <<a href="mailto:Alison.WOOD@oregon.gov" class="">Alison.WOOD@oregon.gov</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2018-1: Allow Inter-regional ASN Transfers<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">IMHO, yes.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">For A), I’m not sure I see the need to support these transactions. We don’t support them for IPv6 (nor do I think we want to).<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Sales of IPv4 addresses were a stop-gap to deal with a situation of scarcity, free pool exhaustion, and getting by until v6<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">is widely enough deployed. Hopefully they will eventually go away and we can return to more traditional forms of resource management.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">For B), I’m still not convinced. They can’t move their IPv6 resources (nor do I think we want to support doing so). The ability to move their IPv4 resources is largely an artifact of the same scarcity/free pool exhaustion described above. However, my objections to solving this particular problem are a bit less than my objections to solving problem A).<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Owen<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Feb 1, 2018, at 06:51 , WOOD Alison * DAS <<a href="mailto:Alison.WOOD@oregon.gov" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Alison.WOOD@oregon.gov</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Thank you all for the excellent feedback on this draft.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Considering James’ suggestions, would the community prefer to take each point as a different proposal? They seem to be two different solutions to two different issues.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Thanks!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">-Alison</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>james machado<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:47 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2018-1: Allow Inter-regional ASN Transfers<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">So we seem to have 2 "problems" for this draft if I am reading correctly.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">A) An Entity wishes to buy/sell/transfer one or more ASN(s) to another Entity without regard of the destination RIR. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">B) Entity with one or more ASN(s) wishes to move one or more ASN(s) to a new RIR, possibly complementing an IP move, to begin/continue operations in the destination RIR.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">James<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Monaco, serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (</span><a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: purple; 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