<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Before we travel too far down this branch of discussion, I’d like to point out that fees are not within the realm of ARIN policy debate and therefore aren’t really an appropriate topic for this list.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you’d like to discuss such a fee, there is arin-discuss (open to Members/Staff/Board/AC) where fee discussions are appropriate.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Alternatively, there is also the ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process (ACSP) available via the Participate tab on the ARIN web site.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 27, 2017, at 13:08 , Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" class="">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I don’t see how you can go back and start charging Legacy holders that obtained their blocks before ARIN was created. You would have to charge big companies like AT&T & IBM and you would have to somehow charge the Dept. of Defense and so forth to make it fair to everyone. Seems like that ship sailed long ago. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Steven Ryerse<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">President<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">770.399.9099 - Office<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">770.392.0076 - Fax<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'MS Mincho'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span id="cid:image001.jpg@01D36799.F9F0C740"><image001.jpg></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'MS Gothic'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">℠</span><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.5in;" class=""><sup class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">℠</span></sup><sup class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></sup></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Roberts, Orin<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, November 27, 2017 3:59 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Andrew Bagrin <<a href="mailto:abagrin@omninet.io" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abagrin@omninet.io</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC Validation Upon Reassignment<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I see obstacles but increased fees would lead to greater efficiency in IPv4 assignments and usage or at the very least aid in the migration to IPv6.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><ol start="1" type="A" style="margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=""><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span lang="EN-CA" class="">Charging a monthly fee (or higher monthly fee), means increased costs to end-users for whatever services said company provides.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span lang="EN-CA" class="">ISP’s with VERY LARGE inventory of IPs would lobby against such a proposal. A typical ISP would have several /16’s in reservation - capacity planning.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span lang="EN-CA" class="">What’s to stop companies from doing what they do now? – Reassign or Reallocate unused inventory (ie trade and monetize via brokers).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li></ol><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Orin Roberts<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Andrew Bagrin<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>November-27-17 3:35 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Austin Murkland <<a href="mailto:austin.murkland@qscend.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">austin.murkland@qscend.com</a>>; Andre Dalle <<a href="mailto:adalle@ncf.ca" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">adalle@ncf.ca</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC Validation Upon Reassignment<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-CA" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I’d also like to see a $100 monthly fee per IPv4 /24 currently assigned. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I held onto a /16 at a previous company, just because it was cool but had no use for it. I checked recently and it is still assigned to the same company and not being used 15 years later.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">By adding a $25k monthly fee, they would quickly return the block.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Currently we have to pay brokers or sellers to acquire more IPv4 space. I would rather pay ARIN which could go to better funding the organization.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a name="_MailEndCompose" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></a></div><span class=""></span><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Austin Murkland<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, November 27, 2017 3:26 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Andre Dalle <<a href="mailto:adalle@ncf.ca" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">adalle@ncf.ca</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC Validation Upon Reassignment<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Also support this<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Andre Dalle <<a href="mailto:adalle@ncf.ca" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">adalle@ncf.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">All my IPv4 space is reassigned, and I discovered last year that not all of it - from the same carrier - is properly associated with us.<br class=""><br class="">Upstream created a POC for us (even though we were an existing customer with multiple reassignments), and it's been sluggish getting them to<br class="">sort it out. We have rDNS, so most abuse reporting still finds us, but some abuse mechanisms out there rely on POC info.<br class=""><br class="">So I think this is necessary. +100 from here as well.<br class=""><br class="">----<br class="">André Dalle<br class="">Systems Administrator<br class="">National Capital FreeNet [<a href="http://www.ncf.ca/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.ncf.ca</a>]<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">----- Original Message -----<br class="">From: "Joe Provo" <<a href="mailto:ppml@rsuc.gweep.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ppml@rsuc.gweep.net</a>><br class="">To: "ARIN-PPML List" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br class="">Sent: Wednesday, 22 November, 2017 11:01:59<br class="">Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-12: Require New POC Validation Upon Reassignment<br class=""><br class="">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 06:13:46PM -0500, David Huberman wrote:<br class="">> Thank you Scott. As the co-author, I very much recognize this<br class="">> proposal text is a ???first draft???. Working with my co-author<br class="">> Jason Schiller, and having solicited feedback from the AC, this<br class="">> proposal was submitted to solve the general problem. My hope was<br class="">> the mechanics would be looked at critically by the community during<br class="">> the PDP, and we would work together to improve them.<br class=""><br class="">With my personal hat on I'm very happy to see this getting<br class="">to discussion. +100 for intent and I look forward to useful<br class="">language suggestions here.<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Posted from my personal account - see X-Disclaimer header.<br class="">Joe Provo / Gweep / Earthling<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class=""><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" style="color: purple; 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