<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">For those wondering: Source of my country ranks below:<div class=""><a href="http://www.geoba.se/population.php?pc=world" class="">http://www.geoba.se/population.php?pc=world</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 8, 2017, at 20:46 , Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 7, 2017, at 13:46 , David Farmer <<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" class="">farmer@umn.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Cathy,<div class=""><br class=""></div>Yes, in some ways it would be more straight forward to just say LACNIC and AFRINIC are allowed an exception to the reciprocity requirement. However, that policy would contain only the facts of the situation. Whereas this policy contains quantifiable reasoning why LACNIC and AFRINIC are exempted from the reciprocity requirement and why APNIC and RIPE are not. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Actually, if you wanted to do that, I think you’d have somehow account for population differences between the various regions served as I think there is a radically different fraction of the population of earth in each of the RIR’s service regions. Since APNIC includes both China (1.37 bn) and India (1.28 bn) and in fact 18 of the top 100 countries</div><div class="">by population, I’m pretty sure it is well ahead of most of the others. The number 3 nation on the list is the US at 328 Mil. By the time you get to 14, you’re looking at populations under 100 Mil. Of the top 15, we have: APNIC: 8 (CN, IN, ID, PK, BD, JP, PH, VN) , ARIN: 1 (US), AfriNIC: 3 (NG, ET, EG) , RIPE: 1 (RU), LACNIC: 2 (MX, BR).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">To be honest, I didn't want the reciprocity requirement in the original transfer policy to being with, because of the optics of this very situation with LACNIC and AFRINIC. However, I didn't push the issue with the original transfer policy because I knew it would be several year before LACNIC and AFRINIC got to the point of approving a transfer policy of any kind. So, when this issue with LACNIC and AFRINIC came up I thought obvious thing to do was to eliminate the reciprocity requirement all together. However, I really like this compromise as well as the reasoning that comes with it. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For many of the same reasons, I oppose this policy. That’s fine, men of good conscience can look at the same set of facts and draw different conclusions in good faith.</div></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">There is absolutely no reason for transfers with APNIC and RIPE to not be on a reciprocal basis. However, with LACNIC and AFRINIC I feel there should be room for some nuance. LACNIC and AFRINIC have received the short-end of the stick, so to speak. There was no conspiracy or wrongdoing that caused this result, but it is a stark fact when you look at the numbers. I therefore believe these facts should afford LACNIC and AFRINIC some latitude to decide for themselves how best to move forward. </div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>LACNIC and AfriNIC for a variety of reasons are late to the party for IPv4. I will venture to say that I have spent as much time working with and in the AfriNIC region as any other member of the AC, possibly more. I will also venture to say that I have a pretty good understanding of the network situation in the LACNIC region.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The reality is that if we permit a unilateral transfer policy, we are, in fact, encouraging them to disable their networks with an even larger IPv4 legacy and greater IPv4 technical debt.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class="">In the long-run I totally believe LACNIC and AFRINIC should approve reciprocal transfer policies. However, we need to give them room to decide this for themselves, it is arrogant and inconsiderate of the facts for us to dictate a reciprocal transfer policy to them. If they feel they need to start with a one-way transfer policy, there is logic to such a strategy, and the current facts seem to justify at least some caution on their part. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>We aren’t dictating anything to them. We are saying that if they want access to the addresses currently in this region, then it has to be on an equal footing with an equivalent bilateral policy. I see nothing arrogant or unfair about that and claiming that it is flies in the face of the facts of the matter.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class="">Finally, the numbers show we have more than enough room to be magnanimous in this situation, I believe we should give LACNIC and AFRINIC room to maneuver, and choose their own way forward. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>They are perfectly free to choose whatever way forward they wish to choose without any changes in ARIN policy.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks.</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Cj Aronson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:cja@daydream.com" target="_blank" class="">cja@daydream.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class="">Okay so this formula.. does it just give us Afrinic and Lacnic right? So why don't we just say that? Since there are only 5 RIRs it seems that maybe a formula isn't needed?<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_-3669364158760926527gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class="">{Ô,Ô}</font></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class=""> (( ))</font></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class=""> ◊ ◊</font></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:35 PM, ARIN <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">info@arin.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The following has been revised:<br class="">
<br class="">
* Draft Policy ARIN-2017-4: Remove Reciprocity Requirement for Inter-RIR Transfers<br class="">
<br class="">
Revised text is below and can be found at:<br class="">
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2017_4.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr class="">oposals/2017_4.html</a><br class="">
<br class="">
You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated in the Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these principles are:<br class="">
<br class="">
* Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration<br class="">
* Technically Sound<br class="">
* Supported by the Community<br class="">
<br class="">
The PDP can be found at:<br class="">
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pd<wbr class="">p.html</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at:<br class="">
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr class="">oposals/index.html</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
Sean Hopkins<br class="">
Policy Analyst<br class="">
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Draft Policy ARIN-2017-4: Remove Reciprocity Requirement for Inter-RIR Transfers<br class="">
<br class="">
Version Date: 6 September 2017<br class="">
<br class="">
Problem Statement:<br class="">
<br class="">
AFRINIC and LACNIC are currently considering one-way inter-RIR transfer proposals. Those RIR communities feel a one-way policy a policy that allows network operators in their regions to obtain space from another region and transfer it into AFRINIC and LACNIC may best meet the needs of the operators in that region.<br class="">
<br class="">
ARIN staff, in reply to an inquiry from AFRINIC, have formally indicated that ARINs 8.4 policy language will not allow ARIN to participate in such one-way transfers. The staff formally indicate to AFRINIC that the word reciprocal in 8.4 prohibits ARIN from allowing ARIN-registered space to transfer directly to AFRINIC (in this context).<br class="">
<br class="">
ARIN as a community should recognize that other RIR operator communities have different needs than we do. We should recognize that:<br class="">
<br class="">
- network operators in AFRINIC in LACNIC have need to obtain space in the market;<br class="">
<br class="">
- have reasons they think are important to not allow two-way transfers; and<br class="">
<br class="">
- we should understand that the history of the RIR system has led to LACNIC and AFRINIC having multiple orders of magnitude less IPv4 address space than ARIN does.<br class="">
<br class="">
Policy statement:<br class="">
<br class="">
Add the following sentence after the first sentence of NRPM 8.4:<br class="">
<br class="">
Inter-RIR transfers may take place to an RIR with a non-reciprocal inter-RIR transfer policy only when the recipient RIR has an IPv4 total inventory less than the average (mean) of the IPv4 total inventory among all of the RIRs.<br class="">
<br class="">
Timetable for implementation: Upon the ratification of any inter-RIR transfer policy at another RIR that is one-way as described in the problem statement.<br class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
PPML<br class="">
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</blockquote></div><br class=""></div>
<br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
PPML<br class="">
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Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" class="">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>-- <br class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">===============================================<br class="">David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank" class="">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br class="">Networking & Telecommunication Services<br class="">Office of Information Technology<br class="">University of Minnesota <br class="">2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815<br class="">Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952<br class="">=============================================== </div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class=""><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" class="">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class=""><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>