<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Thinking more about the use of an average distribution in the proposal, I’m wondering if this accurately reflects the issue. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The distribution of IP addresses by IANA to the various RIRs is only inequitable if it results in a clear difference in the ability of an entity in different regions to acquire IP address space. We don’t need the same number of allocations in each region - if nothing else, the allocations should roughly reflect regional populations - but it should be no more difficult for a party in Africa or South America to acquire IPv4 resources than it is for a party in North America, Europe, or Asia to do so. To the extent that this is not the case, we owe the community action to correct.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The question then becomes - does the lack of a transfer policy from ARIN to these regions make it substantially more difficult to acquire space on the transfer market today? I’d argue that to the extent that doing so requires transferring to the space to the local RIR, then the answer is YES, as from my point of view, the bulk of transfer market supply is from allocations in the ARIN region (resellers on the list who are in a position to comment, please keep me honest and speak up if that isn’t the case).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is somewhat mitigated by the current case that both LACNIC and AFRINIC still have space to allocate, while ARIN does not. But shower term point-in-time facts shouldn’t drive far-reaching policy decisions IMO.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As such, I support the goal of the policy, but I believe that the calculation used to determine qualifying RIRs could be tweaked. Could we compare allocation percentages to world population, perhaps?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-C</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 7, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Cj Aronson <<a href="mailto:cja@daydream.com" class="">cja@daydream.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">David.. I agree with your very well written summary. I just feel that the mathematical formula to determine when the transfers have to start being reciprocal is not needed. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The reason why I feel that way is that we're computing something that was said earlier, "<span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">To go below the global average, the RIR above the average and closest to</span><br style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">it would need to lose 81,871,002 more addresses, which at the current rate</span><br style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">(14,592 lost per month) would take 5,620 months (468 years)." </span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It seems like we're spending time computing something that is not likely to happen.. I would surely hope we are done with IPv4 within the next 468 years :-) </div><div class=""><br style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks!</div><div class="">-----Cathy</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class="">{Ô,Ô}</font></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class=""> (( ))</font></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class=""> ◊ ◊</font></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 2:46 PM, David Farmer <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank" class="">farmer@umn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class="">Cathy,<div class=""><br class=""></div>Yes, in some ways it would be more straight forward to just say LACNIC and AFRINIC are allowed an exception to the reciprocity requirement. However, that policy would contain only the facts of the situation. Whereas this policy contains quantifiable reasoning why LACNIC and AFRINIC are exempted from the reciprocity requirement and why APNIC and RIPE are not. <br class=""><br class="">To be honest, I didn't want the reciprocity requirement in the original transfer policy to being with, because of the optics of this very situation with LACNIC and AFRINIC. However, I didn't push the issue with the original transfer policy because I knew it would be several year before LACNIC and AFRINIC got to the point of approving a transfer policy of any kind. So, when this issue with LACNIC and AFRINIC came up I thought obvious thing to do was to eliminate the reciprocity requirement all together. However, I really like this compromise as well as the reasoning that comes with it. <br class=""><br class="">There is absolutely no reason for transfers with APNIC and RIPE to not be on a reciprocal basis. However, with LACNIC and AFRINIC I feel there should be room for some nuance. LACNIC and AFRINIC have received the short-end of the stick, so to speak. There was no conspiracy or wrongdoing that caused this result, but it is a stark fact when you look at the numbers. I therefore believe these facts should afford LACNIC and AFRINIC some latitude to decide for themselves how best to move forward. <div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In the long-run I totally believe LACNIC and AFRINIC should approve reciprocal transfer policies. However, we need to give them room to decide this for themselves, it is arrogant and inconsiderate of the facts for us to dictate a reciprocal transfer policy to them. If they feel they need to start with a one-way transfer policy, there is logic to such a strategy, and the current facts seem to justify at least some caution on their part. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Finally, the numbers show we have more than enough room to be magnanimous in this situation, I believe we should give LACNIC and AFRINIC room to maneuver, and choose their own way forward. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks.</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class=""><div class="h5"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Cj Aronson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:cja@daydream.com" target="_blank" class="">cja@daydream.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class="">Okay so this formula.. does it just give us Afrinic and Lacnic right? So why don't we just say that? Since there are only 5 RIRs it seems that maybe a formula isn't needed?<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_-8123076024790774757m_-3669364158760926527gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class="">{Ô,Ô}</font></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class=""> (( ))</font></div><div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" class=""> ◊ ◊</font></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:35 PM, ARIN <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">info@arin.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The following has been revised:<br class="">
<br class="">
* Draft Policy ARIN-2017-4: Remove Reciprocity Requirement for Inter-RIR Transfers<br class="">
<br class="">
Revised text is below and can be found at:<br class="">
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2017_4.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr class="">oposals/2017_4.html</a><br class="">
<br class="">
You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated in the Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these principles are:<br class="">
<br class="">
* Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration<br class="">
* Technically Sound<br class="">
* Supported by the Community<br class="">
<br class="">
The PDP can be found at:<br class="">
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pd<wbr class="">p.html</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at:<br class="">
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr class="">oposals/index.html</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
Sean Hopkins<br class="">
Policy Analyst<br class="">
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Draft Policy ARIN-2017-4: Remove Reciprocity Requirement for Inter-RIR Transfers<br class="">
<br class="">
Version Date: 6 September 2017<br class="">
<br class="">
Problem Statement:<br class="">
<br class="">
AFRINIC and LACNIC are currently considering one-way inter-RIR transfer proposals. Those RIR communities feel a one-way policy a policy that allows network operators in their regions to obtain space from another region and transfer it into AFRINIC and LACNIC may best meet the needs of the operators in that region.<br class="">
<br class="">
ARIN staff, in reply to an inquiry from AFRINIC, have formally indicated that ARINs 8.4 policy language will not allow ARIN to participate in such one-way transfers. The staff formally indicate to AFRINIC that the word reciprocal in 8.4 prohibits ARIN from allowing ARIN-registered space to transfer directly to AFRINIC (in this context).<br class="">
<br class="">
ARIN as a community should recognize that other RIR operator communities have different needs than we do. We should recognize that:<br class="">
<br class="">
- network operators in AFRINIC in LACNIC have need to obtain space in the market;<br class="">
<br class="">
- have reasons they think are important to not allow two-way transfers; and<br class="">
<br class="">
- we should understand that the history of the RIR system has led to LACNIC and AFRINIC having multiple orders of magnitude less IPv4 address space than ARIN does.<br class="">
<br class="">
Policy statement:<br class="">
<br class="">
Add the following sentence after the first sentence of NRPM 8.4:<br class="">
<br class="">
Inter-RIR transfers may take place to an RIR with a non-reciprocal inter-RIR transfer policy only when the recipient RIR has an IPv4 total inventory less than the average (mean) of the IPv4 total inventory among all of the RIRs.<br class="">
<br class="">
Timetable for implementation: Upon the ratification of any inter-RIR transfer policy at another RIR that is one-way as described in the problem statement.<br class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
PPML<br class="">
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class="">
<a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/<wbr class="">listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br class="">
</blockquote></div><br class=""></div>
<br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
PPML<br class="">
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class="">
<a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/<wbr class="">listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><span class="">-- <br class=""><div class="m_-8123076024790774757gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">==============================<wbr class="">=================<br class="">David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank" class="">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br class="">Networking & Telecommunication Services<br class="">Office of Information Technology<br class="">University of Minnesota <br class="">2218 University Ave SE Phone: <a href="tel:(612)%20626-0815" value="+16126260815" target="_blank" class="">612-626-0815</a><br class="">Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: <a href="tel:(612)%20812-9952" value="+16128129952" target="_blank" class="">612-812-9952</a><br class="">==============================<wbr class="">================= </div>
</span></div>
</blockquote></div><br class=""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class=""><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>