<div dir="ltr">David,<div><br></div><div>please ask your question again. </div><div>I don't see any responses, and I for one</div><div>did not understand the question...</div><div><br></div><div>I read the problem statement as follows:</div><div><br></div><div>1. community networks policy has not been used</div><div>2. we tried to remove it on the grounds that it is not used </div><div> therefore not needed</div><div>3. Removal failed because it is needed.</div><div>4. claims were made that it is unused because </div><div> the defintion is too narrow to be useful </div><div><br></div><div>5. implied problem we should have a useful </div><div> community networks policy that gets used.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the issue here is in the implied statement 5, </div><div>- Get used for what? </div><div>- What special treatment should community networks get?</div><div>- What special treatment do community networks require?</div><div><br></div><div>One was reduced billing, but that seems to have been </div><div>addressed by creating reduced billing for a very small</div><div>category which happens to sweep in most community </div><div>networks. (The ones not swept in have no problem </div><div> playing by the regular rules)</div><div><br></div><div>Or are we simply trying to have a useful defintion of</div><div>community networks not disappear from the NRPM </div><div>because the Numbers Community values community </div><div>networks and while there is no specific special treatment</div><div>necessary for community networks, there might be a </div><div>requirement in the future and having a useful definition</div><div>will enable that when it is needed, and reminds us when </div><div>making new policy to not forget about community networks?</div><div><br></div><div>reading the thread, my sense is:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Most community networks should be able to get resources </div><div>as easily as an end-user </div><div>(does not need to include very large ones who should operate </div><div> like ISPs)</div><div><br></div><div>2. Small-ish community networks should have a financial </div><div>burden that is no bigger than a small-ish end-user</div><div><br></div><div>3. Community networks provide addresses for use</div><div>on their downstream customer's equipment, so must be</div><div>an "ISP" under ARIN terms</div><div><br></div><div>4. Because of #3, community networks with no requirement</div><div> for re-allocations, cannot take advantage</div><div> of end-user $100/resource annual billing </div><div><br></div><div>5. Community networks with a requirement for</div><div> re-allocations must pay a lot more than small-ish</div><div> end-users.</div><div><br></div><div>You include Kevin's email about concerns that </div><div>an overly broad definition of community network</div><div>could enable and org which today must be an ISP</div><div>to use this definition to get reclassified as an end-user</div><div>and avoid SWIP requirements.</div><div><br></div><div>I agree with those concerns. </div><div><br></div><div>I see no reason why the current proposal with the</div><div>current problem statement couldn't also remove </div><div>or amend 6.5.9</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>__Jason</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 9:42 AM, David Farmer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">farmer@umn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Ok, then I need to hear from others in the community on the subject expanding the scope of the problem statement for this Draft Policy beyond the just the Definition of Community Networks at this point;<div><br></div><div>Should we revise the problem statement beyond it's current scope?</div><div><br></div><div>If yes, then what should the revised problem statement include?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Kevin Blumberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kevinb@thewire.ca" target="_blank">kevinb@thewire.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="m_8566260619306855759m_7593462285244539701WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_8566260619306855759_m_7593462285244539701__MailEndCompose"><span>David,<u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>I see that the revised text addresses some of the definition issues. Regarding your question I believe that the definition and section 6.5.9 are intrinsically
tied together. <u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>Currently the only active part of Community Networks is the state that it will be considered an end-user regarding “all ARIN purposes”. I have an issue
if this is used by Organizations to act as a way of opting-out of SWIP requirements. With a substantially expanded definition the number of Organizations that could use the policy is significant.<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>Another interesting problem comes from the new Registration Services Plan (</span></span><a href="https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html" target="_blank"><span><span>https://www.arin.net/fees/fee<wbr>_schedule.html</span></span><span></span></a><span><span>)<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>“Organizations that choose to convert to the Registration Services Plan will be evaluated as an ISP from a policy perspective when requesting future Internet
number resources from ARIN. The applicable annual registration services plan will be invoiced annually based on the organization resources in the ARIN registry.”<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>Kevin Blumberg<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span><u></u> <u></u></span></span></p>
<span></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> David Farmer [mailto:<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">farmer@umn.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 24, 2017 3:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kevin Blumberg <<a href="mailto:kevinb@thewire.ca" target="_blank">kevinb@thewire.ca</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the definition of Community Network<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kevin,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There was a little confusion, mostly on my part it seems. Cutting to the chase; An older version of the text got sent out with the announcement of this policy. An updated version of text got sent out earlier today, it addresses some but
for sure not all of your points. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As for several of the broader points you bring up, I'd like to work on updating the definition for Community Networks first, mostly because that is the scope of the problem statement focuses on. Once we develop some consensus around a new
definition for Community Networks, then I think we could build on that and look at some of the broader issues you bring up. Would that plan work for you?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Kevin Blumberg <<a href="mailto:kevinb@thewire.ca" target="_blank">kevinb@thewire.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not support the policy as written but do support the overall intent.<br>
<br>
1) The definition of a community network has gone from overly specific to overly broad. An example in Canada there are over 160,000 non-profit and not-for-profit organizations.<br>
2) A volunteer group, that is not an organization, wouldn't be able to get space from ARIN as it requires a business registration (ARIN Staff please confirm).<br>
3) Why is there a limit to only post-secondary institutions? Many rural locations have K-12 that would not qualify.<br>
4) In Canada, a charity is a non-profit organization, more generic terms should be used that covers the entire ARIN serving region.<br>
5) The current Community Networks policy conflicts with the intent of 2017-5 Improved IPv6 Registration Requirements. By placing all space into End User assignment, Community Networks operating as a ISP collective for residential subscribers would be unable
to reassign static assignments.<br>
<br>
The current Community Networks policy requires an applicant to qualify under standard end-user requirements (Section 6.5.9.2). If there is no difference to the qualification criteria, why would an organization go out of the way to qualify as a Community Network?<br>
<br>
I wrote a policy in 2016 that tried to address some of these issues, it was abandoned at the time (
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2016_7.html" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr>oposals/2016_7.html</a> )<br>
<br>
Kevin Blumberg<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: ARIN-PPML [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin<wbr>.net</a>] On Behalf Of ARIN<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 12:40 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the definition of Community Network<br>
<br>
On 17 August 2017 the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) advanced<br>
"ARIN-prop-243: Amend the Definition of Community Network" to Draft Policy status.<br>
<br>
Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8 is below and can be found at:<br>
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2017_8.html" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr>oposals/2017_8.html</a><br>
<br>
You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated in the Policy Development Process (PDP).
Specifically, these principles are:<br>
<br>
* Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration<br>
* Technically Sound<br>
* Supported by the Community<br>
<br>
The PDP can be found at:<br>
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/pd<wbr>p.html</a><br>
<br>
Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at:<br>
<a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/policy/pr<wbr>oposals/index.html</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sean Hopkins<br>
Policy Analyst<br>
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the Definition of Community Network<br>
<br>
Problem Statement:<br>
<br>
The Community Networks section of the NRPM has not been used since implementation in January 2010. Proposal ARIN-2016-7, to increase the number of use cases, was abandoned by the Advisory Council due to lack of feedback. Proposal ARIN 2017-2, to remove all
mention of community networks from NRPM was met with opposition by the community. Many responded that the definition of “community network” was too narrow, which could be the reason for lack of uptake.<br>
<br>
Policy statement:<br>
<br>
CURRENT NRPM TEXT:<br>
<br>
“2.11. Community Network<br>
<br>
A community network is any network organized and operated by a volunteer group operating as or under the fiscal support of a nonprofit organization or university for the purpose of providing free or low-cost connectivity to the residents of their local service
area. To be treated as a community network under ARIN policy, the applicant must certify to ARIN that the community network staff is 100% volunteers.”<br>
<br>
NEW NRPM TEXT:<br>
<br>
“2.11 Community Network<br>
<br>
A community network is a network organized and operated by a volunteer group, not-for-profit, non-profit, charitable organization, or post-secondary institution for the purpose of providing free or low-cost connectivity to residents in their service area. Critical
functions may be handled by paid staff, but volunteers play a large role in offering services available through community networks.”<br>
<br>
Comments:<br>
<br>
Timetable for implementation: Immediate<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">==============================<wbr>=================<br>
David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">
Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>
Office of Information Technology<br>
University of Minnesota <br>
2218 University Ave SE Phone: <a href="tel:(612)%20626-0815" target="_blank">
612-626-0815</a><br>
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: <a href="tel:(612)%20812-9952" target="_blank">
612-812-9952</a><br>
==============================<wbr>================= <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
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</font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></blockquote></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="m_8566260619306855759gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">==============================<wbr>=================<br>David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>Office of Information Technology<br>University of Minnesota <br>2218 University Ave SE Phone: <a href="tel:(612)%20626-0815" value="+16126260815" target="_blank">612-626-0815</a><br>Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: <a href="tel:(612)%20812-9952" value="+16128129952" target="_blank">612-812-9952</a><br>==============================<wbr>================= </div>
</font></span></div></div></div>
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Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><font color="#555555" face="'courier new', monospace"><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial"><font color="#555555" face="'courier new', monospace">_______________________________________________________<br></font><div><font face="'courier new', monospace">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank">jschiller@google.com</a>|571-266-0006</font></div><div><font face="'courier new', monospace"><br></font></div></span></div></font></div>
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