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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi Owen,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As far as I know, Ripe does not require that, only addresses sourced in ARIN or APNIC require a needs test at RIPE.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>And thank you for demonstrating yet again that you are basing these policy decisions on a fear of market manipulation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>You ignored the various reasons why we do not have to fear this, and the absence of evidence of such attempts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Can you present any evidence of IPv4 transfer market manipulation or speculation that does not involve free-pool plundering?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I think that if we are bound to clutter the NRPM over these fears, some evidence should be forthcoming.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>After all, we are the stakeholders who have some control over the situation and certainly would have time to erect one of these policy barriers in the case that such evidence arose. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,<br>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 03, 2017 5:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com><br><b>Cc:</b> David Huberman <daveid@panix.com>; arin-ppml@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] 2016-3 Revisited<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>No, Mike, You are missing that “an organization’s business purpose” may be something other than “running an operational network”.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We are attempting to ensure that the addresses go to those who intend to use them in an operational network, rather than treating them as a commodity futures investment, speculative transaction, or other financial manipulation at the expense of the internet.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Even RIPE requires you to use at least half of the addresses on an operational network.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Feb 3, 2017, at 07:53 , Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi David,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I appreciate you trying to make me understand.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>So are you assuming in your example that you seek to purchase space that you do not need for your business purposes.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>My argument is that organizations do not purchase space for which they don’t feel there is a valid business purpose. Now it’s true that an organization’s perception of need will vary from the one which is being rigorously defined here, but there is an obvious brake on the purchase of items for which there is not a business purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>And for those whom we are imagining who are determined to somehow go around policy to acquire un-necessary space, there are already plenty of workarounds, the simplest of which is to acquire RIPE space.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Am I missing something obvious that requires this additional complexity to what was a nice smooth section of the NRPM? <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>David Huberman [<a href="mailto:daveid@panix.com"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:daveid@panix.com</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Friday, February 03, 2017 10:43 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"><span style='color:purple'>mike@iptrading.com</span></a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Jason Schiller <<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com"><span style='color:purple'>jschiller@google.com</span></a>>;<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span style='color:purple'>arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] 2016-3 Revisited</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I buy a /13. I abuse the spirit of 2016-3, meant for smaller transfers as our first attempt at no needs testing, by reiterating /16 transfers one after the other.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Market pricing doesn't stop this, and the ARIN community who participates in public policy matters has made it clear that an incremental approach towards needs testing is a good thing.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>David<br><br>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Feb 3, 2017, at 10:34 AM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"><span style='color:purple'>mike@iptrading.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If that approach still doesn't work can you suggest some other mechanism to prevent abuse that does not prevent an organization who needs IP space from using this policy? <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi Jason,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Why are we ignoring the mechanism that prevents organizations from buying un-needed anything? To wit, they have to pay money for these addresses. You guys are spinning up unlikely scenarios and ignoring the 800lb. elephant in the room… the cost of these addresses is the mechanism you seek. <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (</span><a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif;color:purple'>ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br></span><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif;color:purple'>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'><br>Please contact<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif;color:purple'>info@arin.net</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Monaco",serif'>if you experience any issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>