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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi Scott,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I would support the policy even with 8.5.2, having registered my concerns.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I would support it more if 8.5.2 was removed, and transfer needs were determined under the already-operative NRPM 1.2 text calling for efficient distribution to organizations who have a technical need for the addresses in support of operational networks. We shouldn’t copy bits of operational text and stick them in every section simply to afford convenience to those who can’t be bothered to find them in section 1.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Let an officer attest to the fact that they need the addresses in support of an operational network, fine. The real functional attestation of need is the corporation paying for the addresses and that won’t change.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>So I would encourage simplification via the removal of 8.5.2 on the basis that it goes beyond 1.2 through the use of the word “solely”, which will lead to confusion with buyers who either don’t yet have an operational network, or buyers who are buying for strictly planning purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Scott Leibrand [mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 24, 2016 10:22 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com>; Michael Peddemors <michael@linuxmagic.com>; John Curran <jcurran@arin.net><br><b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2016-5: Post-IPv4-Free-Pool-Depletion Transfer Policy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div id=compose><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I am assuming we'll need to tighten up this language to make it more operational: specifically requiring attestation of operational use, not just making a general statement about ARIN only issuing space to operational networks. Would that help address your concern? If so, let's revisit after Andrew and I and the AC shepherds figure out the exact revision we want there, unless you have any specific suggestions for language we should consider. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_____________________________<br>From: Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>><br>Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 9:17 AM<br>Subject: RE: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2016-5: Post-IPv4-Free-Pool-Depletion Transfer Policy<br>To: Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>>, Michael Peddemors <<a href="mailto:michael@linuxmagic.com">michael@linuxmagic.com</a>>, John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net">jcurran@arin.net</a>><br>Cc: <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I see the harm in the inclusion of non-operational text which seems to put into the NRPM something like a specific community expression against financial speculation which I think is not necessary. This inclusion could end up being a Trojan horse for future policy which could hinge on the assumption that the ARIN community had made this overt expression.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As I said I support the intent of simplifying the transfer policy but I don’t think 8.5.2 is necessary in light of NRPM 1.2 Conservation: </span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'>Conservation of these common number spaces requires that Internet number resources be efficiently distributed to those organizations who have a technical need for them in support of operational networks.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'>On the assumption that we don’t want wasted or non-op verbiage in the NRPM, why is this section required?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;background:white'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Scott Leibrand [<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com">mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 24, 2016 10:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>>; Michael Peddemors <<a href="mailto:michael@linuxmagic.com">michael@linuxmagic.com</a>>; John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net">jcurran@arin.net</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2016-5: Post-IPv4-Free-Pool-Depletion Transfer Policy</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I think you're misunderstanding the intent here. This very simple "operational use" clause, that doesn't interfere with *any* legitimate transfers, is all that should be needed to prevent financial speculation, and allow us to dramatically simplify the needs test, or even remove it entirely in some cases (like the /24 for new entrants). Unless you see some actual harm that the clause would do, please just consider it "insurance" against an unlikely event that some people are concerned about, so we can move on to actually simplifying the rest of the policy. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>-Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:59 AM -0500, "Mike Burns" <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> I do believe such a provision would have significant teeth with respect to inhibiting<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> IP address blocks as a viable large scale investment opportunity. While those <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> of questionable repute may want work around such provisions, it would be rather<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> difficult to establish a formal vehicle (i.e. fund) for investment in IP resource blocks <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> based on a requirement for the necessary representations and the associated risk <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> of loss of the entire investment in cases of fraud. Other than that circumstance, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> I agree that it would be fairly straightforward for most operating companies to make<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> reasonable representations based on anticipated needs without significant concern.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>/John<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Now the boogeyman has morphed into a hypothetical formal investment fund for IPv4 addresses. Despite zero evidence of anybody buying addresses and then reselling them for profit, we are asked to include this non-operational chaff in the NRPM. Despite an atomized supply, despite anti-flip provisions, despite IPv6 in the offing. I wonder again what is keeping this fictional investment fund from opening a RIPE LIR and buying all they want? <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>For what it's worth, there are active buyers today seeking to acquire millions of addresses which they desperately need for their operational networks and planned growth. Guess what, despite having the largest warchests around, they can't find sellers capable of meeting their needs. Why do you think a fund would have any more luck? Where is your evidence that 8.5.2 would have significant teeth regarding its inhibiting effect on viable large scale investments in ipv4? Is this just your opinion?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>John, people can have different views on whether IP blocks should be treated as other commodities, and thus hedged, invested in, or speculated on. There is no need to cast aspersions on those who have this view, and your language about "questionable repute" goes beyond policy advice and veers into policy partisanship.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Mike<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>PPML<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></pre></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>