<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I’ll note that there are some pretty substantial “ifs” in your statement there. Not all operators are in a position to satisfy those “ifs”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Also, how is this behavior harmful? What operational issues arise from use of the backward-compatible mode here? Is it just a matter of not being able to see other ASNs with 23456 in path if you’re running in compatibility mode? If so, that’s not going to impact anyone but the operator itself (which IMO should be motivation enough to upgrade, but I don’t control those operator’s budgets).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-C</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 11, 2016, at 3:08 PM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 11, 2016, at 15:05 , Chris Woodfield <<a href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" class="">chris@semihuman.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I’d argue that doing so ignores the fact that 2-byte vs 4-byte AS numbers (yes, I’m still using that terminology, so sue me) are handled fundamentally differently by the BGP protocol. As such, this isn’t a place where we can effectively boil the ocean and force providers to update their hardware via policy.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Actually, they aren’t treated at all differently if you are using the modern configuration options.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Sure, if you are continuing to use traditional communities, you are limited to low-order ASNs in the ASN portion of the community string.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Sure, there’s a certain amount of backwards-compatible handling of ASPATH management in modern routers and that code still gets occasionally exercised in interacting with ancient equipment still in operation.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, if you have a configuration using extended communities and full support of modern ASNs enabled on your router, then all ASNs are treated as 32-bit ASNs and there is no fundamental difference remaining.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There’s no attempt to boil the ocean and force providers. Merely an attempt to recognize that the days of treating them differently have, in fact, passed in most of the world and we shouldn’t be further enabling the harmful behavior of pretending otherwise.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If this is such a huge issue, why isn’t it coming up in the other RIRs?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As such, I’d far prefer that *as available* we continue to keep 2-byte ASNs in reserve for providers who can document their reasons for not being able to support having a 4-byte ASNs. Obviously there will be a day where those are all gone and then we’ll have no choice but to force operators to run compliant hardware/software.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Note I’m making it clear that this isn’t just a matter of software; there’s quite a bit of gear out there on the internet that doesn’t have available software at all that supports 4-byte ASNs. And there are definitely operators that don’t have the budget to swap it out.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This isn’t a case of inefficiency, it’s simply the fact that many providers are stuck using old hardware. Given negligible cost to accommodate, I have no problem doing so.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-C</div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 11, 2016, at 2:53 PM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Apr 11, 2016, at 14:38 , John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" class="">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">On Apr 11, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type="cite" class=""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 11, 2016, at 12:24 , John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" class="">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span class="" style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Since parties coming to ARIN are distinguishing between these classes of 4-byte ASNs<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br class="" style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">and come back explicitly asking for one ≤65535, are you suggesting that ARIN not hold</span><br class="" style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">these lower ones to be able to satisfy such requests?</span><br class="" style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Yes.</span><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">I believe that we, more than any other region, have been lazy in our adoption of current internet technologies to the detriment of the internet at large.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">I believe that continuing to facilitate this is not providing a useful service to the internet as a whole.</div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Just to be clear, you feel that ARIN registry policy which rapidly depletes the </div><div class="">lower range of 4-byte ASNs would be technically sound and facilitate fair and </div><div class="">impartial number resource administration? </div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>No. I believe that ARIN registry policy which ignores any previous distinction</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">between ASNs ≤65535 and ASNs ≥65536 is harmful. I believe that a policy which</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">makes no distinction and hands them out as if they were a single pool of 32-bit</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">numbers is in the best interests of the community.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">At some point there will no longer be available ASNs ≤65535. So be it. That</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">date should neither be accelerated nor decelerated by ARIN policy.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="">It would be helpful if you could explain how in some detail, given that there </div><div class="">appears to be sufficient number of lower range 4-byte ASNs for those who </div><div class="">require such for their operations, and further that the supply appears to be</div><div class="">sufficient for quite some time (potentially till there is greater acceptance </div><div class="">and far fewer hurdles with the use of higher range 4-byte ASNs…)</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>So far, I haven’t seen so much a requirement as a convenience request for those</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">lower numbers.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Owen</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; 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