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However I was told by ARIN, a small ISP like me they could claw back
any Legacy resources<br>
I acquired outside of the ARIN system. The big guys aren't
intimidated by this but we are.<br>
The money required to even acquire 1 /24 is now big time. And lack
of a direct allocation<br>
of IPv6 for $500 is a major obstruction for small ISP's.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/19/2016 3:05 PM, Steven Ryerse
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4c441ed1455143799ad02787e79f9120@eclipse-networks.com"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If
ARIN does not have the resources to allocate because of
runout, how pray tell can an ARIN policy be used to corner
the market? You can’t get blood out of a turnip. There is
nothing to stop someone from buying a Legacy block
completely outside of ARIN now if they choose to do that.
We know that current ARIN policies are not stopping brokers
from doing this - as there is a brisk business of blocks
being traded in one way or another. You are just
rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic which has already
sunk and is already at the bottom of the sea. I wonder if
the fish down there really care where those chairs are
arranged?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The
common sense thing to do would be to modify ARINs policies
to encourage all transactions to go thru ARIN which would
lead to more supply for everyone. This would be in line
with ARIN’s mission to further the Internet. Unfortunately
common sense rarely prevails in this community.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center
North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.05070002.09020509@cameron.net"
alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks
Logo_small.png" height="37" width="56"></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Conquering
Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Schiller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 19, 2016 1:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Randy Carpenter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rcarpen@network1.net"><rcarpen@network1.net></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> ARIN PPML <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><arin-ppml@arin.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9:
Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2 and 8.3
transfers of IPv4 netblocks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Removing barriers would allow companies
with enough money to out right buy more than a two year
supply of IPv4 addresses if they believed their likelihood
of needing a longer time horizon justifies the cost. They
could complete the transaction, transfer the address space
in whole, and use as they desired over whatever time horizon
they saw fit.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is different to a buying a future
where money is paid to hold IPv4 addresses, and make them
available for sipping from in two year (or less) sized
increments under the ARIN transfer policy. This requires
demonstrating efficient utilization of currently held
resources, and then only permits a maximum transfer of two
year supply, after which a new demonstration of efficient
utilization of currently held resources, and a new two
year window can be established. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This second approach has much risk
associated. Risk of the transfer source going bankrupt,
risk of the transfer source breaching the contract, risk
of the transfer source finding more favorable terms and
transferring the remaining future to another party, risk
of the transfer recipient having underutilization and have
an inability to get additional resources, risk of
transferring the resources to the wrong OrgID (realizing a
new use case under one OrgID evaporates, and a different
new use case appears under a different OrgID).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As such, the inherent risk of a future
will likely limit the spend.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Reducing or eliminating this risk will
encourage the behavior. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is different than just paying
money to get unlimited use of IPv4 resources outside of
ARIN policy, with no transfer, and only a letter of
authority to route the space, a re-allocate or
re-assignment SWIP, or a public comment indicating who
has the right of use. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This third approach has the risk of
the source going bankrupt and the risk that the source
could easily revoke the LOA, SWIP or public comment, and
ask providers to not route the IP space. It has the
added reputation risk that the recipient of the IP space
is acting below board.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As such risk is even greater than the
previous case and will likewise have a greater
limitation on the spend.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The final case is renting of IPv4
space. This differs from the previous case in that the
spend is ongoing (e.g. monthly or yearly).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The risk is similar to the previous
case except if the IPv4 addresses are revoked payment is
stopped. While the recipient has not lost their future
spend, they also may find themselves suddenly out of
IPv4 space. With the difficulty of renumbering, they
may find they are forced to pay predatory pricing from
some period of time, and double rent new IP space while
they number out of the old (excessively high cost) IPv4
space. Furthermore, if IPv4 space is not available for
rent at a reasonable price, they will be locked in to
paying an unreasonable price.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Due to the uncertainty and
possibility of lock in and predatory pricing I would
argue this arrangement is even more risky than the
previous arrangement if long term (think more than 2
years) use of IPv4 is desired.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">___Jason<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Randy
Carpenter <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rcarpen@network1.net" target="_blank">rcarpen@network1.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Are you arguing that by removing the barriers that it
would make it more difficult for Google to get more
addresses? If not, then the point is moot.<br>
<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
-Randy<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
----- On Feb 18, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Mueller, Milton
L <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu">
milton@gatech.edu</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Really. Am I going to have to be the first to
point out the irony of Google<br>
> employees complaining that companies with "deep
pockets" and "the most<br>
> profitable services" will dominate the address
market if we make minor<br>
> relaxations of need assessments?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> What's wrong with this picture? Think, folks.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Isn't it obvious that companies like Google are
in a very good position to get<br>
> the addresses they want - via less than
transparent market mechanisms such as<br>
> options contracts and acquisitions? And isn't
it possible that they might be<br>
> trying to prevent smaller companies from
participating in the market by<br>
> throwing up artificial barriers?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> All this talk of "fairness" overlooks the fact
that it's more fair to have<br>
> simple, transparent bidding and less
bureaucracy. Smaller bidders can easily<br>
> afford smaller chunks of numbers, and they
benefit from the reduced<br>
> administrative burden and delays associated
with pointless and restrictive<br>
> needs assessments. When I hear smaller ISPs who
need addresses making Jason's<br>
> arguments, I might take them seriously. Until
then, no.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --MM<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>>
on behalf of Jason<br>
> Schiller <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a>><br>
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 3:11 PM<br>
> To: Vaughn Thurman - Swift Systems<br>
> Cc: ARIN PPML<br>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based<br>
> evaluation for Section 8.2 and 8.3 transfers of
IPv4 netblocks<br>
> +1 to what MCTim, Owen, and Vaughn said.<br>
><br>
> In general I oppose transfers with no need.<br>
><br>
> If there are "networks in need of additional
IPv4 addresses", surely they should<br>
> be able to show this, in accord with long
standing practice.<br>
><br>
> I'd rather us not move to a situation which
enables/encourages speculation and<br>
> profit taking (or rent-seeking if you will) in
re: IP resource distribution.<br>
><br>
> I'd also rather not encourage one competitor in
a business segment to be able to<br>
> better stockpile addresses and for that to
become a competitive advantage<br>
> against other providers in the space.
Additionally if this is done in a wide<br>
> enough scale it can sufficiently lengthen wide
spread IPv6 adoption.<br>
><br>
> This policy would also allow for companies with
the deepest pockets and the most<br>
> profitable services to concentrate IPv4 space.
I'm not sure that is more "fair"<br>
> than the pre-existing framework for "fair".<br>
><br>
> __Jason<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Vaughn Thurman
- Swift Systems <<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vaughn@swiftsystems.com">vaughn@swiftsystems.com</a>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> +1<br>
><br>
> Sent from my mobile device, please forgive
brevity and typos.<br>
><br>
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:16 PM, Owen DeLong < <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:owen@delong.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a></a>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> +1 — McTim said it very well.<br>
><br>
> Owen<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 10:34 , McTim < <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com">dogwallah@gmail.com</a></a>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I am opposed.<br>
><br>
> If there are " networks in need of additional
IPv4 addresses", surely they<br>
> should be able to show this, in accord with
long standing practice.<br>
><br>
> I'd rather us not move to a situation which
enables/encourages speculation and<br>
> profit taking (or rent-seeking if you will) in
re: IP resource distribution.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> McTim<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Leif Sawyer
< <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lsawyer@gci.com">
lsawyer@gci.com</a> > wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Good afternoon -<br>
><br>
> Based on feedback from Montreal as well as
internal discussions, I've reworked<br>
> this policy.<br>
> AC members and ARIN staff are looking for
additional feedback, as well as your<br>
> position in terms<br>
> of supporting or opposing this draft policy.<br>
><br>
> We'll be discussing this policy, as well as any
feedback provided on this week's<br>
> AC teleconference,<br>
> so I'm very appreciative of your input.<br>
><br>
> Thanks,<br>
><br>
> Leif Sawyer<br>
> Shepherd - ARIN-2015-9<br>
><br>
> NRPM section 8: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight"
target="_blank">
https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight</a><br>
><br>
> Most current draft policy text follows:<br>
> --<br>
><br>
> Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9<br>
> Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section
8.2 and 8.3 transfers of IPv4<br>
> netblocks<br>
> Original Date: 23 September 2015<br>
> Updated: 16 February, 2016<br>
><br>
> Problem statement:<br>
> The current needs-based evaluation language in
NRPM sections 8.2 and 8.3,<br>
> regarding transfer of IPv4<br>
> netblocks from one organization to another, may
cause a recipient organization<br>
> to bypass the ARIN<br>
> registry entirely in order to secure the needed
IPv4 netblocks in a more timely<br>
> fashion directly from the<br>
> current holder. The result is that the data
visible in ARIN registry may become<br>
> more inaccurate over<br>
> time.<br>
><br>
> Policy statement:<br>
> This proposal eliminates all needs-based
evaluation language for sections 8.2<br>
> and 8.3, allowing<br>
> transfers to be reflected in the database as
they occur following an agreement<br>
> of transfer from the<br>
> resource provider to the recipient.<br>
><br>
> Section 8.1 Principles:<br>
> - Strike the fragment from the 3rd paragraph
which reads<br>
> ", based on justified need, "<br>
> so the resulting text reads<br>
> "Number resources are issued to organizations,
not to individuals representing<br>
> those organizations."<br>
> Section 8.2 Mergers and Acquisitions:<br>
> - Change the 4th bullet from:<br>
> "The resources to be transferred will be
subject to ARIN policies."<br>
> to:<br>
> "The resources to be transferred will be
subject to ARIN policies, excluding any<br>
> policies related to needs-based justification."<br>
><br>
> - Strike the final paragraph which begins "In
the event that number resources of<br>
> the combined organizations are no longer
justified under ARIN policy ..."<br>
><br>
> Section 8.3 Transfers between Specified
Recipients within the ARIN Region:<br>
> - Change the first bullet under "Conditions on
recipient of the transfer" from:<br>
> "The recipient must demonstrate the need for up
to a 24-month supply of IP<br>
> address resources under current ARIN policies
and sign an RSA."<br>
> to:<br>
> "The recipient must sign an RSA."<br>
><br>
> - Change the 2nd bullet under "Conditions on
recipient of the transfer" from:<br>
> "The resources to be transferred will be
subject to ARIN policies."<br>
> to:<br>
> "The resources to be transferred will be
subject to ARIN policies, excluding any<br>
> policies related to needs-based justification."<br>
><br>
> Comments:<br>
> a. Timetable for implementation: Immediate<br>
> b. Anything else<br>
> As the "free pool" for 4 of the 5 world's RIR's
(APNIC, RIPE, LACNIC, and ARIN)<br>
> have now been<br>
> exhausted, networks in need of additional IPv4
addresses have shifted away from<br>
> the practice of<br>
> receiving them from the RIR's resource pool.
Instead, networks in need are<br>
> seeking out current holders<br>
> of IPv4 resources who are willing to transfer
them in order to fulfill that<br>
> need. Accordingly, the RIR's<br>
> primary responsibility vis-à-vis IPv4 netblock
governance has shifted from<br>
> "allocation" to ensuring an<br>
> accurate registry database.<br>
><br>
> The RIPE registry can be used as a reference of
one which has evolved over the<br>
> past couple years to<br>
> shift their focus away from
conservation/allocation and towards database<br>
> accuracy. IPv4 netblock<br>
> transfers within that RIR consist merely of
validating authenticity of the<br>
> parties requesting a transfer.<br>
> Provided the organizations meet the basic
requirement of RIR membership, and<br>
> that the transferring<br>
> organization has the valid authority to request
the transfer, the transaction<br>
> completes without any<br>
> "needs-based" review.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> PPML<br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> McTim<br>
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address
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_______________________________________________________</span><br>
<span class="im">> Jason Schiller|NetOps| <a
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:#555555">_______________________________________________________</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:black">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a></a>|571-266-0006</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.</pre>
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