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<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Richard J. Letts <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rjletts@uw.edu" target="_blank">rjletts@uw.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">My preference is to apply the policy change as written (with the minor editorial change substituting "criterion" for "criteria".)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">​+1​</div>--<br>Brian<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thank you<br>
<span class=""><font color="#888888">Richard Letts<br>
</font></span><span class="im"><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On<br>
> Behalf Of David Farmer<br>
</span><span class="im">> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:23 PM<br>
> To: ARIN PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
</span><div class=""><div class="h5">> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-2015-3: Remove 30-Day Utilization<br>
> Requirement in End-User IPv4 Policy<br>
><br>
> As shepherd, I need additional feedback on this, I need a better sense of<br>
> what the community wants here.<br>
><br>
> Should we move forward more or less as-is, with a minor editorial change,<br>
> substituting "criterion" for "criteria"?<br>
><br>
> Or, does the community want to work on a way to address the concerns<br>
> raised but Jason?<br>
><br>
> Your input please.<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
><br>
> On 1/29/16 10:00 , Jason Schiller wrote:<br>
> > McTim,<br>
> ><br>
> > WRT some other tangible and verifiable claim to show there was a real<br>
> > commitment to use half the address space within one year...<br>
> ><br>
> > I think there are 3 choices:<br>
> ><br>
> > 1. Very vague<br>
> ><br>
> > Something like "there must be some tangible and verifiable claim to<br>
> > show there was a real commitment to use half the address space within<br>
> > one year and not just a future projection or business case"<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > 2. Open ended with some guidance for ARIN staff:<br>
> ><br>
> > Something like "there must be some tangible and verifiable claim to<br>
> > show there was a real commitment to use half the address space within<br>
> > one year and not just a future projection or business case. Some<br>
> > examples include:<br>
> > - list of equipment in hand to be numbered counting at least 25% of<br>
> > requested IP size<br>
> > - invoices showing equipment purchases demonstrating a commitment to<br>
> > buy equipment to be numbered counting at least 25% of requested IP<br>
> > size<br>
> > - invoices showing equipment purchases demonstrating a commitment to<br>
> > buy equipment to be numbered counting at least 50% of requested IP<br>
> > size within one year<br>
> > - lease agreements for real estate supporting equipment that is<br>
> > appropratly sized to support equipment to be numbered counting at<br>
> > least 50% of requested IP size<br>
> ><br>
> > 3. specific criterion<br>
> ><br>
> > ----<br>
> ><br>
> > I don't know what it the right answer here, and suspect it has more to<br>
> > do with what the community is comfortable with.<br>
> ><br>
> > On one end of the spectrum is choice 1. This allows ARIN to do the<br>
> > right thing. But this also is not clear about what the community<br>
> > expects, and ARIN may act in a way that is counter to what is<br>
> > anticipated, and may seem like ARIN is being arbitrary or has too much<br>
> > leeway to screw with requestors.<br>
> ><br>
> > The opposite end of the spectrum is choice 3. This sets a very clear<br>
> > list of what qualifies. Hammering out that list may be very<br>
> > difficult, and it is unlikely to be complete. This will leave little<br>
> > or no room for ARIN to do the right thing and approve a request that<br>
> > is justified, but not one of the criterion listed.<br>
> ><br>
> > Choice 2 is the middle ground. Where we have a not necessarily<br>
> > complete list of criterion (so somewhat less difficulty in drawing up<br>
> > the list) that creates a very clear expectation of what ARIN should<br>
> > accept (and reduces the possibility that ARIN may act in a way that is<br>
> > counter to what is anticipated, and may seem like ARIN is being<br>
> > arbitrary or has too much leeway to screw with requestors) with<br>
> > respect to criterion clearly defined, while also allowing ARIN to do<br>
> > the right thing with similar types of proof that are not explicitly<br>
> > listed as criterion (this has somewhat higher risk that ARIN may act<br>
> > in a way that is counter to what is anticipated, and may seem like<br>
> > ARIN is being arbitrary or has too much leeway to screw with<br>
> > requestors, but less risk than option 1 as the criterion should serve<br>
> > as good guidance)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > So two open questions to the community?<br>
> ><br>
> > 1. Is the community most comfortable with:<br>
> >Â Â Â A. totally vague and open-ended such as "there must be some<br>
> >Â Â tangible and verifiable claim to show there was a real commitment to<br>
> > use half the address space within one year and not just a future<br>
> > projection or business case"<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â B. A vague statement with some guidance as to some acceptable<br>
> > forms of tangible verifiable proof of a real commitment to use half<br>
> > the IP address within one year.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â C. A very clear list of what proof is considered acceptable<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > 2. If the community prefers B. guidance or C. a very clear list then<br>
> > what sort of things would the community like to see on that list?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 8:27 AM, McTim <<a href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com">dogwallah@gmail.com</a><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Jason Schiller<br>
> >Â Â Â <<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â I support the removal of the 30 day utilization as it is<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â unreasonable for any larger end-site, who may have a real need<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â for say a /16, with 65,000 desktops arriving on a loading doc<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â next week, but an inability to unbox, configure and deploy<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â 16,384 to the various office locations in 30 days.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â agreed.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â However, this is the only provision that has a real, tangible,<br>
> >     and verifiable claim. Without this check justified need for end<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â users simply becomes a 1 year future looking projection, and<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â with sufficient arm waving an easy end run around justified need<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â for any end user with no IP space or if they are efficiently<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â using what they currently hold.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â good point!<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â I could get on board if the maximum sized block permitted on a<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â purely future looking projection was a /24 and you had to use it<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â prior to getting more.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â +1<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â I could certainly get on board if there were some other tangible<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â and verifiable claim to show there was a real commitment to use<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â half the address space within one year.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Would this language suffice, or would we need a metric of some sort?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Regards,<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â McTim<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â __Jason<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Brian Jones <<a href="mailto:bjones@vt.edu">bjones@vt.edu</a><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â <mailto:<a href="mailto:bjones@vt.edu">bjones@vt.edu</a>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Looks good to me Dave. I am okay with using criteria or<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â criterion, however using the strict definition it looks as<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â though criterion is the proper singular form.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â --<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Brian<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 5:54 PM, David Farmer<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu">farmer@umn.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu">farmer@umn.edu</a>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The following is the proposed update for ARIN-2015-3:<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Remove 30-Day Utilization Requirement in End-User IPv4<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Policy based on strong support in Montreal.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Beyond deleting the 25% bullet as the policy says, their<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â are editorial changes as follows to the remaining<br>
> > text;<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - It looks weird to have single item bullet list, so<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â merge the two remaining sentence fragments into a single<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â sentence.<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Change "are" to "is", since there is only one<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â remaining criteria<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Use of "criteria" as a singular is common usage, even<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â though technically it's plural.<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Resulting in "The basic criteria that must be met is a<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 50% utilization rate within one year."<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The remaining and resulting text for 4.3.3 is now<br>
> >         included in the policy text, for editorial clarity. The<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â original staff and legal suggested removing the RFC2050<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference and also pointed out that<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 4.2.3.6 also has a 25% immediate use clause and a<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â RFC2050 reference.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Feedback in Montreal was that deleting the 25% immediate<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â use was a nice bite-sized change, and we shouldn't try<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to do more than that with this change, so those changes<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â are not included at this time.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Any additional feedback or comments are appreciated.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Thanks<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ---------<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Draft Policy ARIN-2015-3: Remove 30 day utilization<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â requirement in end-user IPv4 policy<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Date: 27 January 2015<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Problem Statement:<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â End-user policy is intended to provide end-users with a<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â one year supply of IP addresses. Qualification for a<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â one-year supply requires the network operator to utilize<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â at least 25% of the requested addresses within 30 days.<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â This text is unrealistic and should be removed.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â First, it often takes longer than 30 days to stage<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â equipment and start actually using the addresses.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Second, growth is often not that regimented; the<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â forecast is to use X addresses over the course of a<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â year, not to use 25% of X within 30 days.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Third, this policy text applies to additional address<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â space requests. It is incompatible with the requirements<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â of other additional address space request justification<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â which indicates that 80% utilization of existing space<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â is sufficient to justify new space. If a block is at<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 80%, then often (almost always?) the remaining 80% will<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â be used over the next 30 days and longer. Therefore the<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â operator cannot honestly state they will use 25% of the<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ADDITIONAL space within 30 days of receiving it; they're<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â still trying to use their older block efficiently.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Fourth, in the face of ARIN exhaustion, some ISPs are<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â starting to not give out /24 (or larger) blocks. So the<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â justification for the 25% rule that previously existed<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (and in fact, applied for many years) is no longer germane.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Policy statement:<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Remove the 25% utilization criteria bullet point from<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â NRPM 4.3.3.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Resulting text:<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 4.3.3. Utilization rate<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Utilization rate of address space is a key factor in<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â justifying a new<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â assignment of IP address space. Requesters must show<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â exactly how<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â previous address assignments have been utilized and must<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â provide<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â appropriate details to verify their one-year growth<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â projection.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The basic criteria that must be met is a 50% utilization<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â rate within one year.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â A greater utilization rate may be required based on<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â individual network<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â requirements. Please refer to RFC 2050 for more<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â information on<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â utilization guidelines.<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Comments:<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â a.Timetable for implementation: Immediate<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â b.Anything else<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â --<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ================================================<br>
> >         David Farmer        Email: <a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu">farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <mailto:<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu">farmer@umn.edu</a>><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Office of Information Technology<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â University of Minnesota<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 2218 University Ave SEÂ Â Â Phone: <a href="tel:1-612-626-0815" value="+16126260815">1-612-626-0815</a><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <tel:<a href="tel:1-612-626-0815" value="+16126260815">1-612-626-0815</a>><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029Â Cell: <a href="tel:1-612-812-9952" value="+16128129952">1-612-812-9952</a><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <tel:<a href="tel:1-612-812-9952" value="+16128129952">1-612-812-9952</a>><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ================================================<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â _______________________________________________<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â PPML<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â _______________________________________________<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â PPML<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â --<br>
> ><br>
> _______________________________________________________<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â <mailto:<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a>>|<a href="tel:571-266-0006" value="+15712660006">571-266-0006</a> <tel:<a href="tel:571-266-0006" value="+15712660006">571-266-0006</a>><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â _______________________________________________<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â PPML<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a><br>
> >Â Â Â Â Â <mailto:<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>>).<br>
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> >Â Â Â Â Â experience any issues.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â --<br>
> >Â Â Â Cheers,<br>
> ><br>
> >Â Â Â McTim<br>
> >Â Â Â "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A<br>
> >Â Â Â route indicates how we get there."Â Jon Postel<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > _______________________________________________________<br>
> > Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a><br>
> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">jschiller@google.com</a>>|<a href="tel:571-266-0006" value="+15712660006">571-266-0006</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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> ><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> ================================================<br>
> David Farmer        Email: <a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu">farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
> Office of Information Technology<br>
> University of Minnesota<br>
> 2218 University Ave SEÂ Â Â Phone: <a href="tel:1-612-626-0815" value="+16126260815">1-612-626-0815</a><br>
> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029Â Cell: <a href="tel:1-612-812-9952" value="+16128129952">1-612-812-9952</a><br>
> ================================================<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>