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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So I thought Jose’s email was very spot on.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But I question the relevance of ANY distinction between ISP and End-user in 2016. In what way does the operator community benefit from a difference in rules
(especially wrt Whois)? If we put aside the ARIN billing issue, and look at it purely from an inter-operator perspective, why is it good that ARIN policy and procedures differentiate between ISPs and End-users?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Genuinely curious.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David R Huberman</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
Principal, Global IP Addressing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Microsoft Corporation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Owen DeLong<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 6, 2015 3:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jose R. de la Cruz III <jrdelacruz@acm.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Proposal ARIN-2015-8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Not speaking for John, but I don’t believe that would help because I believe that anything which<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">does not meet the definition of an “end user” is de fact an ISP.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Creating a clear definition of “ISP” would likely, instead, create a new category of organizations<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">which fit neither defined category and suddenly find themselves without any way to interact with<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ARIN. I would not consider that to be an improvement.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It may be that adding a statement to policy that any organization which does not meet the strict<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">definition of “End User” is therefore considered an ISP for policy purposes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Dec 6, 2015, at 13:03 , Jose R. de la Cruz III <<a href="mailto:jrdelacruz@acm.org">jrdelacruz@acm.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">John:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks for the additional info. It looks like the problem brought forth in the referenced document was never completely solved. Because an end user is defined as "<i>an organization receiving assignments of
IP addresses <b>exclusively </b>for use in its operational networks</i>.", it is my opinion that the "<i>exclusively</i>" part of the definition maybe the one creating some problems. In the "large enterprises which may provide services to many entities of
various degrees of affiliation" example, the <i>exclusively </i>part of the definition should not apply. The question is, are these organizations actively involved in the reassigning that IP space to their customers?
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Although no formal definition for ISP is included in the policy manual, an ISP does not fit into the end user definition. Would a definition for ISP provide a clear guidance in thesubject? How should hosting/cloud/cdn providers be categorized?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">José<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:43 AM, John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Dec 4, 2015, at 6:48 AM, Jose R. de la Cruz III <<a href="mailto:jrdelacruz@acm.org" target="_blank">jrdelacruz@acm.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">RE: ARIN-2015-8<br>
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4.<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Should End-Users who want to be able to re-assign records simply be required to become ISPs?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">--->No. Why should they? <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">5.<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span>Should the ISP/End-User distinction be eliminated (which is a bigger discussion outside the scope of the current problem statement)?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">---> No. They are different type of business entities and should be serviced according to their needs.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I have no comment either way regarding the particular policy proposal under<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">discussion, but would like to provide some background that may aid in further<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">consideration of the question:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- The distinction between “end-user” and “ISP” is very clear in many cases, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> but not universally. Examples where it is less clear include university and<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> college systems, large enterprises which may provide services to many <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> entities of various degrees of affiliation (wholly-owned, partially-owned,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> joint entity, business partner), hosting/cloud/cdn providers (where the line<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> between infrastructure and customer can be quite blurry at times), etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- The desire to between ISP and End-User (or visa-versa) may be driven<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> by fee or policy motivations, but we have seen an increase in end-users<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> who wish to re-assign blocks in order to have more accurate information<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> in the database regarding the actual address usage, particularly with <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> respect to their geolocation data. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Today ARIN tries to work with ISPs and end-users who wish to change <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">their categorization, but understandly we lack clear guidance for what <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">is becoming an increasingly blurry distinction. For additional context,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">refer to the ARIN 31 Policy Experience Report (where this issue was <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">raised) - <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">/John<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">John Curran<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">President and CEO<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">ARIN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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