<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Not speaking for John, but I don’t believe that would help because I believe that anything which<div class="">does not meet the definition of an “end user” is de fact an ISP.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Creating a clear definition of “ISP” would likely, instead, create a new category of organizations</div><div class="">which fit neither defined category and suddenly find themselves without any way to interact with</div><div class="">ARIN. I would not consider that to be an improvement.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It may be that adding a statement to policy that any organization which does not meet the strict</div><div class="">definition of “End User” is therefore considered an ISP for policy purposes.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 6, 2015, at 13:03 , Jose R. de la Cruz III <<a href="mailto:jrdelacruz@acm.org" class="">jrdelacruz@acm.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class="">John:<br class=""><br class=""></div>Thanks for the additional info. It looks like the problem brought forth in the referenced document was never completely solved. Because an end user is defined as "<i class="">an organization receiving assignments of IP
addresses <b class="">exclusively </b>for use in its operational networks</i>.", it is my opinion that the "<i class="">exclusively</i>" part of the definition maybe the one creating some problems. In the "large enterprises which may provide services to many entities of various degrees of affiliation" example, the <i class="">exclusively </i>part of the definition should not apply. The question is, are these organizations actively involved in the reassigning that IP space to their
customers? <br class=""><br class="">Although no formal definition for ISP is included in the policy manual, an ISP does not fit into the end user definition. Would a definition for ISP provide a clear guidance in thesubject? How should hosting/cloud/cdn providers be categorized?<br class=""><br class=""></div>José<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:43 AM, John Curran <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank" class="">jcurran@arin.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><span class="">
On Dec 4, 2015, at 6:48 AM, Jose R. de la Cruz III <<a href="mailto:jrdelacruz@acm.org" target="_blank" class="">jrdelacruz@acm.org</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class="">RE: ARIN-2015-8<br class="">
<br class="">
4.<span style="font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times New Roman'" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class="">Should End-Users who want to be able to re-assign records simply
be required to become ISPs?<br class="">
</span></div>
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class="">--->No. Why should they? <br class="">
<br class="">
</span>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=""><span class="">5.<span style="font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times New Roman'" class=""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class="">Should
the ISP/End-User distinction be eliminated (which is a bigger discussion outside the scope of the current problem statement)?<br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class="">---> No. They are different type of business entities and should be serviced according to their needs.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
</span><div class="">I have no comment either way regarding the particular policy proposal under</div>
<div class="">discussion, but would like to provide some background that may aid in further</div>
<div class="">consideration of the question:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- The distinction between “end-user” and “ISP” is very clear in many cases, </div>
<div class=""> but not universally. Examples where it is less clear include university and</div>
<div class=""> college systems, large enterprises which may provide services to many </div>
<div class=""> entities of various degrees of affiliation (wholly-owned, partially-owned,</div>
<div class=""> joint entity, business partner), hosting/cloud/cdn providers (where the line</div>
<div class=""> between infrastructure and customer can be quite blurry at times), etc.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- The desire to between ISP and End-User (or visa-versa) may be driven</div>
<div class=""> by fee or policy motivations, but we have seen an increase in end-users</div>
<div class=""> who wish to re-assign blocks in order to have more accurate information</div>
<div class=""> in the database regarding the actual address usage, particularly with </div>
<div class=""> respect to their geolocation data. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Today ARIN tries to work with ISPs and end-users who wish to change </div>
<div class="">their categorization, but understandly we lack clear guidance for what </div>
<div class="">is becoming an increasingly blurry distinction. For additional context,</div>
<div class="">refer to the ARIN 31 Policy Experience Report (where this issue was </div>
<div class="">raised) - <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf" target="_blank" class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks!</div>
<div class="">/John</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">John Curran</div>
<div class="">President and CEO</div>
<div class="">ARIN</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br class=""></div>
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