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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Having watched this for the last couple of years let me make a couple of observations / one proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There seems to be a lot of fear on both sides of this debate, on the needs test side there seems to be a complete fear of monopolization of the IP address space
by those with deep pockets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">On the other side there seem to be a couple of thoughts:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It’s a market, markets work best when freed from constraints that increase the complexity of non-harmful transactions, and that allowing companies
to more freely exchange IP resources is not harmful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Not liking to justify future and current operations to a third party / fear of rejection by this process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I may not have encapsulated both arguments well, and these have been hashed over again and again for the last few years. So what is different today? ARIN has
allocated every last resource from the free pool, and has a long waiting list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So what if we strike a compromise? What if some restrictions were put on allocation size and frequency without a needs test and left only the truly large or
frequent transactions to do it. Something like this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Every legal entity can obtain up to a /22 from the transfer market every year, in up to two transactions. They may not transfer these resources out of their
network within twelve months. Each legal entity has to occupy a unique address (suite level) from any other entity in the ARIN database.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All transfers larger than a /22 need to have needs based justification done based on the current model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you wanted to speculate, you would need to spin-up dozens of entities all with unique mailstops, and you would have to camp on the addresses for a year.
Meanwhile the small end users and ISPs could obtain up to a /22 of a resource that with a lot of careful use of NAT would support a fairly large public network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill Buhler<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 11:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Owen DeLong<br>
<b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Owens comment from below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“2. To the extent that there is supply, anyone who needs addresses can get them already. Needs-based evaluation does not prevent those with need from getting
addresses… It prevents those without need from getting them.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Owen’s comment is absolutely false!!!!! It allows large organizing who request resources to get what they need or something smaller. It allows medium size
organizations</span> <span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
who request resources to get what they need or something smaller. It allows small organizations who request resources to get what they need or nothing, and there is no other source to get resources if ARIN rejects a request, but the open market which Owen
and others seem to wish did not exist! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It is time to fix this inequity and removing needs tests would be a big help to small organizations who really need resources!
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="56" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D0F78F.63D2FCA0" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Owen DeLong<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 25, 2015, at 04:42 , Elvis Daniel Velea <<a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">Hi Richard,<br>
<br>
On 25/09/15 06:46, Richard J. Letts wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">b)<br>
There is no definitive outcome from the policy change, which makes me feel that it's not worth changing -- the problem statement argument is weak at best.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">the outcome is that everyone that will need IP addresses will be able to get them. Isn't that quite definitive and clear?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sure, except it isn’t actually an outcome of the proposal on many levels:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. The proposal does nothing to guarantee a supply of addresses or even increase the supply.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. To the extent that there is supply, anyone who needs addresses can get them already. Needs-based evaluation does not prevent those with need from getting addresses… It prevents those without need from getting them.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">3. The definitive outcome from the policy change, if there is such, is that those without need will now be more easily able to acquire addresses, potentially preventing those with need from acquiring them.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
It is potentially enabling organizations with more money than need gain more resources, potentially at the expense of non-profit and educational organizations who might not be able to raise cash for additional IPv4 space [or equipment to support a transition
to IPv6].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">So, you think that in today's market the non-profit/educational organizations will have the chance at getting some of the IP space from the market? And if the
needs-based barrier is removed, they will no longer have that chance?<br>
Everyone knows that the IP address is now an asset and is worth a buck. Who do you think will say: I'll give it for free to this educational organization (because they have proven the need to ARIN) instead of giving it for money to this commercial entity (that
may or may not have a demonstrated need need for it).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Contrary to your statement, there have been addresses returned to ARIN and there have been organizations who chose to transfer addresses to those they found worthy rather than maximize the monetization of those addresses.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">OTOH, having a policy like this in place certainly makes it easier to manipulate the market to maximize the price.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">I think we need to wake up. Keeping needs-based criteria in the policy will only cause SOME transfers to be driven underground and block some others.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think claiming that those of us who believe needs-based criteria is still useful are asleep is unwarranted.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">Changing policy just to (potentially) improve the accuracy of a database seems not worth the (potential) risk.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">The change of the accuracy of the registry is already proven in the RIPE region. I would say it's not just potential, it is real and visible.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Please provide the metrics on which you base this assertion. How was RIPE-NCC accuracy measured prior to the policy change and to what extent was it improved as a result of this policy change. What mechanism was used to determine that the
measured increase in accuracy was the result of the particular policy abandoning needs-based evaluation?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">regards,<br>
Elvis</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
________________________________________<br>
From: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>> on behalf of Dani Roisman <<a href="mailto:droisman@softlayer.com">droisman@softlayer.com</a>><br>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:20 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br>
<br>
| Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:53:59 -0400<br>
| From: ARIN <<a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a>><br>
| To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
| Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based<br>
| evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br>
| Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56031167.1010007@arin.net">56031167.1010007@arin.net</a>><br>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
|<br>
| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9<br>
| Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4<br>
| transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br>
|<br>
| On 17 September 2015 the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted<br>
| "ARIN-prop-223 Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3,<br>
| and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks" as a Draft Policy.<br>
|<br>
| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9 is below and can be found at:<br>
| <a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html">https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html</a><br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
There has been some stimulating dialog about the merits of 2015-9. I'd like to ask that in addition to any overall support or lack thereof, you also review the policy language and comment specifically on the changes proposed:<br>
a) For those of you generally in support of this effort, are there any refinements to the changes made which you think will improve this should these policy changes be implemented?<br>
b) For those of you generally opposed to this effort, are there any adjustments to the policy changes which, if implemented, would gain your support?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Dani Roisman<br>
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PPML<br>
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PPML<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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