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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The RIPE issue related directly to the price of IP
addresses being doled out needs-free to each LIR.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The price then was the fees paid to RIPE plus any
fees incurred in creating the new LIR business entity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The net price was still far lower than the price
for a /22 on the transfer market.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It was the price difference that drove the policy
work-arounds in RIPE.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>This is not an issue we face because our incentives
are not misaligned.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Because we know RIPE offers needs-free transfers,
it was not the needs requirement that drove this practice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It was the profit incentive derived from policy
conditions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Likewise here in North America policy conditions
work to provide incentive for off-the-books transfers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>As RIPE changed their policy to meet these real
world conditions, ARIN should do the same and get rid of needs testing
because it provides a disincentive for properly recording the
transfer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Mike</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=andrew.dul@quark.net href="mailto:andrew.dul@quark.net">Andrew
Dul</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=arin-ppml@arin.net
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 25, 2015 6:17
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4
transfers of IPv4 netblocks</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>One might want to be reminded about what happened
in the RIPE region when they allowed organizations to obtain /22 blocks by
just opening a new LIR. <BR><BR>There are lots of threads in the RIPE
mailing-list that you can go read through if you desire. Here is a link
to the outcome, a policy that restricts block flipping.<BR><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2015-01">https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2015-01</A><BR><BR>Yes,
a /24 is not a /22, but if you decide that an organization can just come and
get a free block, people will find ways to abuse the system. This
doesn't apply in the ARIN region now, because our free pool is empty, but
still we can see what happens when incentives are misaligned in resource
allocation.<BR><BR>Andrew<BR><BR>On 9/25/2015 1:07 PM, Steven Ryerse
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:22d7ed30e0c44bd7ae85c424aea092e3@eni-mail1.eclipse-networks.com
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<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So
explain to me how anyone can corner the market on IPv4 blocks when they can
only get one /24 per year without going thru your needs testing. They
have to pay ARIN for them every year so in 3 years they can get up to 3
/24’s as long as they are willing to pay for them every year they have
them. If they stop paying they lose the
resources.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This
is a miniscule amount of resources, and I respectfully submit it would not
appreciably change the availability of resources for anyone. It hasn’t in
other regions as Elvis pointed out. It would however make a big
difference to small Organizations and level the playing field.
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
are not far apart conceptually but we are far apart in what actually
happens. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Steven
Ryerse<O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">President<O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">100 Ashford
Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">770.656.1460
- Cell<O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
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Office<O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
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<P style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SUP><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">
Conquering Complex Networks</SPAN></SUP><SUP><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">℠</SPAN></SUP><SUP><SPAN
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<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> Owen DeLong [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:owen@delong.com">mailto:owen@delong.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, September 25, 2015 3:46 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Steven Ryerse <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com"><SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com></A><BR><B>Cc:</B>
Mike Winters <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:mwinters@edwardrose.com"><mwinters@edwardrose.com></A>;
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation
for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4
netblocks<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Your proposal was to allow anyone to get a /24 per year
whether they needed anything or not.<O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I am not opposed to a policy which would allow
organizations with lesser need to obtain a minimum size block (/24 or /48)
if the potential for abuse can be adequately addressed.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>By abuse, I mean, for example, the creation of entities
with minimalist infrastructure strictly for the sake of qualifying for
addresses.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’m all for the local bakery to be able to get a /24 to
support their 3 cash registers, a router, and a few menu board
displays.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>However, I’m not for VPNs-R-US being able to create 1024
entities each of which owns an SRX-100 and qualifies for a /24 on that
basis.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I don’t think resource policy should substantially change
in a post-runout world and nothing said so far gives me any reason to
believe there is benefit to the community from doing
so.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>This isn't about miserly blocking of allocations for
future theoretical use. This is about trying to make sure that organizations
with need have the best chance of getting resources they need that we can
provide. Allowing organizations without need to hoard addresses is contrary
to that goal.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Interestingly, we seem to have the same goal but
radically different opinions on how best to achieve it.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Owen<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sep 25, 2015, at 12:32 , Steven Ryerse <<A
href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</A>>
wrote:<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
would probably agree with your comment that neither of the above really
helps anyone and probably creates a host of other issues. I would probably
not advocate them either but they would be more fair that the policies in
place now.<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Of
course the easy fix is to allow Organizations of any size to easily get
the Minimum size block which I believe is now a /24 and that would go a
long way towards fixing the problem. I put forth just that policy
change proposal a while back with a limit of one block per year for small
organizations and that Policy Proposal was summarily dumped by folks with
Owen’s views.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
preference is to allow organizations to more easily get resources in this
post Run-Out world, rather than to somehow try to miserly block
allocations in the hope of saving them for some unknown future
use. <SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
appreciate your attempt to be constructive.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Steven
Ryerse</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">President</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">100
Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA
30338</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">770.656.1460
- Cell</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">770.399.9099-
Office</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'MS
Mincho'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><image001.jpg></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'MS
Mincho'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">℠</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
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MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Eclipse
Networks, Inc.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SUP><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">
Conquering Complex Networks</SPAN></SUP><SUP><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">℠</SPAN></SUP><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike Winters
[<A href="mailto:mwinters@edwardrose.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mwinters@edwardrose.com</A>]<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Friday, September 25, 2015 3:03
PM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Steven
Ryerse <<A href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</A>><BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A></A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>RE: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and
8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">That’s
an interesting take on the “inequity”…</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">However,
there is a fundamental flaw with your “inequity” situation. If there
is not enough addresses for a small organization to get them, then nobody
would get them.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">They
will eventually rise to the top just like everyone else, ergo no
inequity.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Assuming
for a moment your argument is correct and not seriously flawed, then
arguing that letting people who don’t need addresses get addresses is
silly since it would only exacerbate the
problem.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
seems the best way to “fix this inequity” that you describe would be to
either:</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">a)</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7pt"> <SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">not
let larger organizations accept smaller allocations;
or</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">b)</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7pt"> <SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">make
everyone take smaller allocations; or</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">c)</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7pt"> <SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">let
ARIN allocate smaller blocks (really bad idea);
or</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">d)</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 7pt"> <SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">some
crazy combination of the above</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Neither
of the above really helps anyone and probably creates a host of other
issues.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">To
be clear, I am not advocating any of the
above.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A></SPAN></A>]<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>On Behalf Of<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Steven
Ryerse<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Friday, September 25, 2015 1:48
PM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Owen
DeLong<BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and
8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Owens
comment from below:</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">“2.
To the extent that there is supply, anyone who needs addresses can get
them already. Needs-based evaluation does not prevent those with need from
getting addresses… It prevents those without need from getting
them.”</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Owen’s
comment is absolutely false!!!!! It allows large organizing who
request resources to get what they need or something smaller. It
allows medium size organizations</SPAN><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">who
request resources to get what they need or something smaller. It
allows small organizations who request resources to get what they need or
nothing, and there is no other source to get resources if ARIN rejects a
request, but the open market which Owen and others seem to wish did not
exist!</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It
is time to fix this inequity and removing needs tests would be a big help
to small organizations who really need
resources! </SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Steven
Ryerse</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">President</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">100
Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA
30338</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">770.656.1460
- Cell</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">770.399.9099-
Office</SPAN></I><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'MS
Mincho'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><image001.jpg></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'MS
Mincho'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">℠</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Eclipse
Networks, Inc.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SUP><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet
MS',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">
Conquering Complex Networks</SPAN></SUP><SUP><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">℠</SPAN></SUP><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A></SPAN></A>]<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>On Behalf Of<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Owen
DeLong<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Friday, September 25, 2015 1:24
PM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</A></SPAN></A><BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and
8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sep 25, 2015, at 04:42 , Elvis Daniel Velea <<A
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</A></SPAN></A>>
wrote:<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Hi Richard,<BR><BR>On
25/09/15 06:46, Richard J. Letts wrote:</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">b)<BR>There is no
definitive outcome from the policy change, which makes me feel that
it's not worth changing -- the problem statement argument is weak at
best.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">the outcome is that
everyone that will need IP addresses will be able to get them. Isn't
that quite definitive and
clear?</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Sure, except it isn’t actually an outcome of the
proposal on many levels:<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>1. The proposal does nothing to guarantee a supply of
addresses or even increase the supply.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>2. To the extent that there is supply, anyone who needs
addresses can get them already. Needs-based evaluation does not prevent
those with need from getting addresses… It prevents those without need
from getting them.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>3. The definitive outcome from the policy change, if
there is such, is that those without need will now be more easily able to
acquire addresses, potentially preventing those with need from acquiring
them.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><BR>It is potentially
enabling organizations with more money than need gain more resources,
potentially at the expense of non-profit and educational organizations
who might not be able to raise cash for additional IPv4 space [or
equipment to support a transition to
IPv6].</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">So, you think that in
today's market the non-profit/educational organizations will have the
chance at getting some of the IP space from the market? And if the
needs-based barrier is removed, they will no longer have that
chance?<BR>Everyone knows that the IP address is now an asset and is
worth a buck. Who do you think will say: I'll give it for free to this
educational organization (because they have proven the need to ARIN)
instead of giving it for money to this commercial entity (that may or
may not have a demonstrated need need for
it).</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Contrary to your statement, there have been addresses
returned to ARIN and there have been organizations who chose to transfer
addresses to those they found worthy rather than maximize the monetization
of those addresses.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>OTOH, having a policy like this in place certainly
makes it easier to manipulate the market to maximize the
price.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">I think we need to wake
up. Keeping needs-based criteria in the policy will only cause SOME
transfers to be driven underground and block some
others.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I think claiming that those of us who believe
needs-based criteria is still useful are asleep is
unwarranted.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Changing policy just to
(potentially) improve the accuracy of a database seems not worth the
(potential) risk.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">The change of the
accuracy of the registry is already proven in the RIPE region. I would
say it's not just potential, it is real and
visible.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Please provide the metrics on which you base this
assertion. How was RIPE-NCC accuracy measured prior to the policy change
and to what extent was it improved as a result of this policy change. What
mechanism was used to determine that the measured increase in accuracy was
the result of the particular policy abandoning needs-based
evaluation?<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Owen<O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><BR>Richard</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">regards,<BR>Elvis</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Courier; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><BR>________________________________________<BR>From:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><<A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A></SPAN></A>>
on behalf of Dani Roisman <<A href="mailto:droisman@softlayer.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:droisman@softlayer.com">droisman@softlayer.com</A></SPAN></A>><BR>Sent:
Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:20 PM<BR>To:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><BR>Subject:
[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based
evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4
netblocks<BR><BR>| Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:53:59 -0400<BR>| From:
ARIN <<A href="mailto:info@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple">info@arin.net</SPAN></A>><BR>| To:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
style="COLOR: purple"><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A></SPAN></A><BR>|
Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating
needs-based<BR>| evaluation for
Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<BR>| Message-ID:
<<A href="mailto:56031167.1010007@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:56031167.1010007@arin.net">56031167.1010007@arin.net</A></SPAN></A>><BR>|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<BR>|<BR>| Draft
Policy ARIN-2015-9<BR>| Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section
8.2, 8.3, and 8.4<BR>| transfers of IPv4 netblocks<BR>|<BR>| On 17
September 2015 the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted<BR>|
"ARIN-prop-223 Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2,
8.3,<BR>| and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks" as a Draft
Policy.<BR>|<BR>| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9 is below and can be found
at:<BR>|<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html"
moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN style="COLOR: purple"><A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html">https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html</A></SPAN></A><BR><BR>Greetings,<BR><BR>There
has been some stimulating dialog about the merits of 2015-9. I'd
like to ask that in addition to any overall support or lack thereof,
you also review the policy language and comment specifically on the
changes proposed:<BR>a) For those of you generally in support of this
effort, are there any refinements to the changes made which you think
will improve this should these policy changes be implemented?<BR>b)
For those of you generally opposed to this effort, are there any
adjustments to the policy changes which, if implemented, would gain
your support?<BR><BR>--<BR>Dani
Roisman<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PPML<BR>You
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<FIELDSET class=mimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET> <BR><PRE wrap="">_______________________________________________
PPML
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