<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 25, 2015, at 04:42 , Elvis Daniel Velea <<a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" class="">elvis@velea.eu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Hi Richard,</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On 25/09/15 06:46, Richard J. Letts wrote:</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">b)<br class="">There is no definitive outcome from the policy change, which makes me feel that it's not worth changing -- the problem statement argument is weak at best.<br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">the outcome is that everyone that will need IP addresses will be able to get them. Isn't that quite definitive and clear?</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Sure, except it isn’t actually an outcome of the proposal on many levels:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>1. The proposal does nothing to guarantee a supply of addresses or even increase the supply.</div><div>2. To the extent that there is supply, anyone who needs addresses can get them already. Needs-based evaluation does not prevent those with need from getting addresses… It prevents those without need from getting them.</div><div>3. The definitive outcome from the policy change, if there is such, is that those without need will now be more easily able to acquire addresses, potentially preventing those with need from acquiring them.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">It is potentially enabling organizations with more money than need gain more resources, potentially at the expense of non-profit and educational organizations who might not be able to raise cash for additional IPv4 space [or equipment to support a transition to IPv6].<br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">So, you think that in today's market the non-profit/educational organizations will have the chance at getting some of the IP space from the market? And if the needs-based barrier is removed, they will no longer have that chance?</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Everyone knows that the IP address is now an asset and is worth a buck. Who do you think will say: I'll give it for free to this educational organization (because they have proven the need to ARIN) instead of giving it for money to this commercial entity (that may or may not have a demonstrated need need for it).</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Contrary to your statement, there have been addresses returned to ARIN and there have been organizations who chose to transfer addresses to those they found worthy rather than maximize the monetization of those addresses.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>OTOH, having a policy like this in place certainly makes it easier to manipulate the market to maximize the price.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I think we need to wake up. Keeping needs-based criteria in the policy will only cause SOME transfers to be driven underground and block some others.</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I think claiming that those of us who believe needs-based criteria is still useful are asleep is unwarranted.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Changing policy just to (potentially) improve the accuracy of a database seems not worth the (potential) risk.<br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">The change of the accuracy of the registry is already proven in the RIPE region. I would say it's not just potential, it is real and visible.</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Please provide the metrics on which you base this assertion. How was RIPE-NCC accuracy measured prior to the policy change and to what extent was it improved as a result of this policy change. What mechanism was used to determine that the measured increase in accuracy was the result of the particular policy abandoning needs-based evaluation?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">Richard<br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">regards,</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Elvis</span><br style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Courier; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">________________________________________<br class="">From: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" class="">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" class="">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>> on behalf of Dani Roisman <<a href="mailto:droisman@softlayer.com" class="">droisman@softlayer.com</a>><br class="">Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:20 PM<br class="">To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br class="">Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br class=""><br class="">| Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:53:59 -0400<br class="">| From: ARIN <<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" class="">info@arin.net</a>><br class="">| To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br class="">| Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based<br class="">| evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br class="">| Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:56031167.1010007@arin.net" class="">56031167.1010007@arin.net</a>><br class="">| Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br class="">|<br class="">| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9<br class="">| Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4<br class="">| transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br class="">|<br class="">| On 17 September 2015 the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted<br class="">| "ARIN-prop-223 Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3,<br class="">| and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks" as a Draft Policy.<br class="">|<br class="">| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9 is below and can be found at:<br class="">| <a href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html" class="">https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html</a><br class=""><br class="">Greetings,<br class=""><br class="">There has been some stimulating dialog about the merits of 2015-9. I'd like to ask that in addition to any overall support or lack thereof, you also review the policy language and comment specifically on the changes proposed:<br class="">a) For those of you generally in support of this effort, are there any refinements to the changes made which you think will improve this should these policy changes be implemented?<br class="">b) For those of you generally opposed to this effort, are there any adjustments to the policy changes which, if implemented, would gain your support?<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Dani Roisman<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class=""><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">PPML<br class="">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).<br class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml<br class="">Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Courier; 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