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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">One might want to be reminded about
what happened in the RIPE region when they allowed organizations
to obtain /22 blocks by just opening a new LIR. <br>
<br>
There are lots of threads in the RIPE mailing-list that you can go
read through if you desire. Here is a link to the outcome, a
policy that restricts block flipping.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2015-01">https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2015-01</a><br>
<br>
Yes, a /24 is not a /22, but if you decide that an organization
can just come and get a free block, people will find ways to abuse
the system. This doesn't apply in the ARIN region now, because
our free pool is empty, but still we can see what happens when
incentives are misaligned in resource allocation.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<br>
On 9/25/2015 1:07 PM, Steven Ryerse wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
explain to me how anyone can corner the market on IPv4
blocks when they can only get one /24 per year without going
thru your needs testing. They have to pay ARIN for them
every year so in 3 years they can get up to 3 /24’s as long
as they are willing to pay for them every year they have
them. If they stop paying they lose the resources.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This
is a miniscule amount of resources, and I respectfully
submit it would not appreciably change the availability of
resources for anyone. It hasn’t in other regions as Elvis
pointed out. It would however make a big difference to
small Organizations and level the playing field.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We
are not far apart conceptually but we are far apart in what
actually happens.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center
North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.09090803.09090702@quark.net"
alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks
Logo_small.png" height="37" width="56"></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Conquering
Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Owen DeLong [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:owen@delong.com">mailto:owen@delong.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 25, 2015 3:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com"><SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Winters <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mwinters@edwardrose.com"><mwinters@edwardrose.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based evaluation for
Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Your proposal was to allow anyone to get a
/24 per year whether they needed anything or not.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not opposed to a policy which would
allow organizations with lesser need to obtain a minimum
size block (/24 or /48) if the potential for abuse can be
adequately addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">By abuse, I mean, for example, the
creation of entities with minimalist infrastructure strictly
for the sake of qualifying for addresses.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m all for the local bakery to be able
to get a /24 to support their 3 cash registers, a router,
and a few menu board displays.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, I’m not for VPNs-R-US being able
to create 1024 entities each of which owns an SRX-100 and
qualifies for a /24 on that basis.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t think resource policy should
substantially change in a post-runout world and nothing said
so far gives me any reason to believe there is benefit to
the community from doing so.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This isn't about miserly blocking of
allocations for future theoretical use. This is about trying
to make sure that organizations with need have the best
chance of getting resources they need that we can provide.
Allowing organizations without need to hoard addresses is
contrary to that goal.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Interestingly, we seem to have the same
goal but radically different opinions on how best to achieve
it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 25, 2015, at 12:32 , Steven
Ryerse <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
would probably agree with your comment that
neither of the above really helps anyone and
probably creates a host of other issues. I would
probably not advocate them either but they would
be more fair that the policies in place now.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Of
course the easy fix is to allow Organizations of
any size to easily get the Minimum size block
which I believe is now a /24 and that would go a
long way towards fixing the problem. I put forth
just that policy change proposal a while back with
a limit of one block per year for small
organizations and that Policy Proposal was
summarily dumped by folks with Owen’s views.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My
preference is to allow organizations to more
easily get resources in this post Run-Out world,
rather than to somehow try to miserly block
allocations in the hope of saving them for some
unknown future use. <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
appreciate your attempt to be constructive.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven
Ryerse</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford
Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.656.1460
- Cell</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.399.9099-
Office</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><image001.jpg></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse
Networks, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Mike
Winters [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mwinters@edwardrose.com">mailto:mwinters@edwardrose.com</a>]<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday,
September 25, 2015 3:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Steven
Ryerse <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>RE:
[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9:
Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section
8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That’s
an interesting take on the “inequity”…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">However,
there is a fundamental flaw with your “inequity”
situation. If there is not enough addresses for a
small organization to get them, then nobody would
get them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">They
will eventually rise to the top just like everyone
else, ergo no inequity.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Assuming
for a moment your argument is correct and not
seriously flawed, then arguing that letting people
who don’t need addresses get addresses is silly
since it would only exacerbate the problem.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It
seems the best way to “fix this inequity” that you
describe would be to either:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">a)</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">not
let larger organizations accept smaller
allocations; or</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">b)</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">make
everyone take smaller allocations; or</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">c)</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">let
ARIN allocate smaller blocks (really bad idea); or</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">d)</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D"> <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">some
crazy combination of the above</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Neither
of the above really helps anyone and probably
creates a host of other issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To
be clear, I am not advocating any of the above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a></span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a></span></a>]<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Steven
Ryerse<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday,
September 25, 2015 1:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Owen
DeLong<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a></span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9:
Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section
8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Owens
comment from below:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">“2.
To the extent that there is supply, anyone who
needs addresses can get them already. Needs-based
evaluation does not prevent those with need from
getting addresses… It prevents those without need
from getting them.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Owen’s
comment is absolutely false!!!!! It allows large
organizing who request resources to get what they
need or something smaller. It allows medium size
organizations</span><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">who
request resources to get what they need or
something smaller. It allows small organizations
who request resources to get what they need or
nothing, and there is no other source to get
resources if ARIN rejects a request, but the open
market which Owen and others seem to wish did not
exist!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It
is time to fix this inequity and removing needs
tests would be a big help to small organizations
who really need resources! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven
Ryerse</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford
Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.656.1460
- Cell</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.399.9099-
Office</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><image001.jpg></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS
Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse
Networks, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a></span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a></span></a>]<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Owen
DeLong<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday,
September 25, 2015 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</a></span></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a></span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9:
Eliminating needs-based evaluation for Section
8.2, 8.3, and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 25, 2015, at 04:42 ,
Elvis Daniel Velea <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</a></span></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">Hi
Richard,<br>
<br>
On 25/09/15 06:46, Richard J. Letts wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">b)<br>
There is no definitive outcome from the
policy change, which makes me feel that
it's not worth changing -- the problem
statement argument is weak at best.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">the
outcome is that everyone that will need IP
addresses will be able to get them. Isn't
that quite definitive and clear?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sure, except it isn’t actually
an outcome of the proposal on many levels:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. The proposal does nothing to
guarantee a supply of addresses or even increase
the supply.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. To the extent that there is
supply, anyone who needs addresses can get them
already. Needs-based evaluation does not prevent
those with need from getting addresses… It
prevents those without need from getting them.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">3. The definitive outcome from
the policy change, if there is such, is that those
without need will now be more easily able to
acquire addresses, potentially preventing those
with need from acquiring them.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;orphans:
auto;text-align:start;widows:
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
It is potentially enabling organizations
with more money than need gain more
resources, potentially at the expense of
non-profit and educational organizations
who might not be able to raise cash for
additional IPv4 space [or equipment to
support a transition to IPv6].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">So,
you think that in today's market the
non-profit/educational organizations will have
the chance at getting some of the IP space
from the market? And if the needs-based
barrier is removed, they will no longer have
that chance?<br>
Everyone knows that the IP address is now an
asset and is worth a buck. Who do you think
will say: I'll give it for free to this
educational organization (because they have
proven the need to ARIN) instead of giving it
for money to this commercial entity (that may
or may not have a demonstrated need need for
it).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Contrary to your statement,
there have been addresses returned to ARIN and
there have been organizations who chose to
transfer addresses to those they found worthy
rather than maximize the monetization of those
addresses.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">OTOH, having a policy like this
in place certainly makes it easier to manipulate
the market to maximize the price.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">I
think we need to wake up. Keeping
needs-based criteria in the policy will only
cause SOME transfers to be driven
underground and block some others.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think claiming that those of
us who believe needs-based criteria is still
useful are asleep is unwarranted.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;orphans:
auto;text-align:start;widows:
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">Changing
policy just to (potentially) improve the
accuracy of a database seems not worth the
(potential) risk.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">The
change of the accuracy of the registry is
already proven in the RIPE region. I would
say it's not just potential, it is real and
visible.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please provide the metrics on
which you base this assertion. How was RIPE-NCC
accuracy measured prior to the policy change and
to what extent was it improved as a result of this
policy change. What mechanism was used to
determine that the measured increase in accuracy
was the result of the particular policy abandoning
needs-based evaluation?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;orphans:
auto;text-align:start;widows:
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier">regards,<br>
Elvis</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
________________________________________<br>
From:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a></span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a></span></a>>
on behalf of Dani Roisman <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:droisman@softlayer.com"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:droisman@softlayer.com">droisman@softlayer.com</a></span></a>><br>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:20 PM<br>
To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a></span></a><br>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based
evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4
transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br>
<br>
| Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:53:59 -0400<br>
| From: ARIN <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a>><br>
| To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a></span></a><br>
| Subject: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2015-9: Eliminating needs-based<br>
| evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3,
and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br>
| Message-ID: <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:56031167.1010007@arin.net"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:56031167.1010007@arin.net">56031167.1010007@arin.net</a></span></a>><br>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8;
format=flowed<br>
|<br>
| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9<br>
| Eliminating needs-based evaluation for
Section 8.2, 8.3, and 8.4<br>
| transfers of IPv4 netblocks<br>
|<br>
| On 17 September 2015 the ARIN Advisory
Council (AC) accepted<br>
| "ARIN-prop-223 Eliminating needs-based
evaluation for Section 8.2, 8.3,<br>
| and 8.4 transfers of IPv4 netblocks" as
a Draft Policy.<br>
|<br>
| Draft Policy ARIN-2015-9 is below and
can be found at:<br>
|<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html"><span
style="color:purple"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html">https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2015_9.html</a></span></a><br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
There has been some stimulating dialog
about the merits of 2015-9. I'd like to
ask that in addition to any overall
support or lack thereof, you also review
the policy language and comment
specifically on the changes proposed:<br>
a) For those of you generally in support
of this effort, are there any refinements
to the changes made which you think will
improve this should these policy changes
be implemented?<br>
b) For those of you generally opposed to
this effort, are there any adjustments to
the policy changes which, if implemented,
would gain your support?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Dani Roisman<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
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class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if
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PPML<br>
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Please contact<span
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class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if
you experience any issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Courier"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.</pre>
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