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    Exclusivity is not guaranteed outside of the registry.  We can both
    put the same address on a piece of equipment.  Who has the rights to
    use that address?  Most people say it's whoever has the entry in the
    registry.<br>
    <br>
    I'd be happy to sell you the number 4.  It will be up to you to
    prove to people that you have the exclusive right to use it and for
    them to accept that right.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/2/2015 10:48 AM, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:015201d09d4b$852aff40$8f80fdc0$@iptrading.com"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">First
            a diversion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
            continue to hear RFC2050 used to buttress the continuance of
            needs testing today.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It
            should be obvious to anybody that *<b>in the presence of a
              free pool</b>* that without needs testing transfers, you
            effectively remove needs testing altogether.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Otherwise
            someone could get addresses, transfer them away to a
            needless entity, and repeat the process to drain  the pool.
            A non-starter, obviously. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
            of course we needed to needs-test transfers then, but the
            argument today is in the context of a drained free pool, and
            so the logic behind RFC2050’s testing of transfers is
            likewise draining away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Onto
            this discussion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What
            is happening in this discussion is, in my mind, the tail
            wagging the dog.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It’s
            as if your local property registrar in your county has
            determined that when you buy a property, you are really
            buying the listing at the registrar’s office.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Instead
            of the fact that you are buying real property and the
            registrar is merely registering your ownership, not
            providing your rights to it. Just because IP addresses are
            not tangible, like real property, doesn’t mean they only
            exist as database entries in a registrar’s list. Especially
            as we have demonstrated that that list is not dispositive
            insofar as being able to utilize or transfer rights to
            utilize the addresses. We all know that ARIN is not the
            routing police.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What
            David and other are saying is that your rights are to an
            exclusive set of numbers to be used on the Internet, not to
            a registry listing. And as proof of that position, they
            point to the fact that address rights are transferred very
            effectively without regards to the ARIN registry. There is
            no denying this. Legacy sellers legally sell their rights
            for money, buyers pay money and then use the addresses as
            they wish, and ARIN’s registry has nothing to say.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">ARIN
            has played typical historical role of the over-reaching
            steward who comes to feel the resources being stewarded
            belong to the steward and not the king. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
            the answer to John’s question of what is being transferred? 
            The exclusive right to use a block of numbers on the
            Internet, deriving from a continuous chain-of-custody of
            rights granted legally by the US Department of Commerce. For
            legacy holders, anyway. For non-legacy holders, their rights
            derive from the RSA with ARIN, and ARIN’s rights derive from
            their MoU with the US Department of Commerce. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagine
            a thought experiment. I have a pool of 100 mutually
            exclusive numbers of which one is a lotto winner. I can sell
            each number to a buyer without a registry but with a
            contract. If I sell the same number to two individuals,
            those individuals can take legal actions based on the
            contract that assures exclusivity. So there are legal rights
            to numbers conferred via the contract that do not have
            anything to do with a registry. I might use a registry to
            keep track of things, but that is secondary to the legal
            rights contractually conferred.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagine
            a though experiment. I received an allocation from Jon
            Postel, acting under the authority of the US Department of
            Commerce. I have an email from him with the block numbers I
            was assigned. I use the addresses for five years but then
            find that they were not properly recorded by Mr. Postel, or
            were incorrectly transferred to a subsequent registrar like
            ARIN.  Can’t I take the original email (the contract here)
            to a judge and demand that the registry be changed to match
            my email?  Or, since the rights are “provided” by ARIN,
            wouldn’t I be out of luck, since the rights are to a
            registry entry, and the entry doesn’t match my email? In
            other words, which is primary, a contract granting me
            exclusive use of numbers on the Internet, or ARIN’s control
            of their registry system?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A
            registrar records property rights, it doesn’t create them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Mike
            Burns<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
                Curran<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 02, 2015 10:36 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> David Conrad<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 2, 2015, at 9:04 AM, David
                Conrad <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:drc@virtualized.org">drc@virtualized.org</a>>
                wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">John,<br>
                    <br>
                    On Jun 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, John Curran <<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net">jcurran@arin.net</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <br>
                    <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> Your confusion is likely over
                      what represents “correct attribution” - if ARIN
                      does not<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> operate the registry according
                      to the policies set by those who use it,<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </blockquote>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                    In your view, who uses "the registry"?<br>
                    <br>
                    Do network operators, anti-abuse community members,
                    law enforcement, consumer protection agencies, etc.,
                    make "use" of "the registry"?<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">All of the above parties (and all of
                them can participate in <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">defining the registry policy)<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <div>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <p class="MsoNormal">One can argue that the ARIN
                      community shouldn’t have policies that inhibit
                      transfers<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </blockquote>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                    One could, but I am not. I don't care if "the ARIN
                    community" comes up with a policy defining the sky
                    to be green.  There are numerous mechanisms by which
                    the ARIN community can enforce policy such as a
                    prohibition against (particular) transfers: refuse
                    to delegate reverse DNS, refuse to update the ARIN
                    routing registry, imbed notifications of policy
                    violations in registration records, call the
                    out-of-policy transferees names, etc. None of these
                    defeat the very reason for the existence of the
                    registry. Refusing to update the registration
                    database does.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">David -  you seem to think that
                there's some "thing" transferred  <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">other than rights to the registry
                  entry itself; ie ARIN is "refusing <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">to update the registration
                  database", as if it were a registration <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">of some independent item - an
                  automobile, for example.   What <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">exactly are the IP address blocks
                  if not the registry entry that <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">was created when same is assigned? <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">It is necessary to address this if
                  you are to claim of any accuracy <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">resulting from ARIN following
                  community policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <div>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> but I don’t think you’re
                          actually advocating that ARIN ignore community
                          policy in the<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </blockquote>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> operation of the registry?<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </blockquote>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                        The "community" that makes use of the registry
                        is larger than "ARIN".<br>
                        <br>
                        If the subset of the community that participates
                        in the definition of ARIN policy decided to
                        create a policy that effectively destroyed the
                        registration database, yes, I would definitely
                        advocate ARIN, the corporate entity (or, more
                        specifically, the ARIN board), ignore that
                        policy. I believe the board would actually have
                        a fiduciary responsibility to do so.<br>
                        <br>
                        I believe failure to maintain an accurate
                        registration database (defined to be one that
                        matches actual reality, not one that corresponds
                        to what an infinitesimal subset of the Internet
                        community thinks might be a good idea on any
                        particular day) is a violation of the trust Jon
                        Postel and the Internet community as a whole has
                        placed upon ARIN when ARIN was granted the
                        monopoly for registry services for the ARIN
                        service region.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Again, this assertion is based on
                    your interesting interpretation<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">that ARIN should update the
                    register contrary to policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">With respect to Jon and the time
                    of ARIN's formation, it is fairly<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">clear that the current policies
                    regarding need-based transfer<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">would align quite well with his
                    expectations, especially since the<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">transfer policy at the time, as
                    stated in RFC 2050, was such:<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <pre style="page-break-before:always"><span style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody",serif">"7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR."</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <div>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Could you please clarify if
                          that is what you are suggesting?<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </blockquote>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                        That ARIN abide by RFC 7020, section 2.3 and
                        section 7.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Done.  You have yet to explain
                    how and what is actual transferred<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">that differs from the rights to
                    the entry in the IP registry.  If there is<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">something else transferred (and
                    thus discrepancy if the registry is<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">not updated), please elucidate.  
                    If indeed the IP address block is<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">one and the same with the rights
                    to entry in the registry, there is <o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">no inconsistency at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                    <br>
                    <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">One more time:<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        <o:p></o:p></p>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <blockquote
                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Historically, the point
                            of the registry database was to facilitate
                            management<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </blockquote>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <blockquote
                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <p class="MsoNormal">of the network, e.g., a
                            place you could look up registration
                            information<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </blockquote>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <blockquote
                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <p class="MsoNormal">when you wanted to
                            contact the entity associated with the
                            source address.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </blockquote>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <blockquote
                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <p class="MsoNormal">In the post IPv4 free
                            pool world, what's the point of the American
                            _Registry_<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </blockquote>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <blockquote
                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <p class="MsoNormal">for Internet Numbers
                            again?<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </blockquote>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                        Your continued attempts to dodge this question
                        is getting depressing.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">The actual use of the registry has to
                obtain the place where you <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">_start_ such a process, noting that
                ISP's/LIRs delegate blocks <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">to organizations, and that the real
                world has things like LOA's<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">that are often used, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">None of this has changed - you still
                start the process with the <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">registry, and need to pursue to find
                the operational contact you <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">seek.  ARIN following its community
                policy doesn't change this<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">in the least, and you probably are
                aware of this reality existed<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">long before any transfer market.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">/John<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">John Curran<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">President and CEO<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">ARIN<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
PPML
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Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
================================================================
Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.wholesaleinternet.com">http://www.wholesaleinternet.com</a>
================================================================ </pre>
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