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Exclusivity is not guaranteed outside of the registry. We can both
put the same address on a piece of equipment. Who has the rights to
use that address? Most people say it's whoever has the entry in the
registry.<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to sell you the number 4. It will be up to you to
prove to people that you have the exclusive right to use it and for
them to accept that right.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/2/2015 10:48 AM, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:015201d09d4b$852aff40$8f80fdc0$@iptrading.com"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">First
a diversion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
continue to hear RFC2050 used to buttress the continuance of
needs testing today.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It
should be obvious to anybody that *<b>in the presence of a
free pool</b>* that without needs testing transfers, you
effectively remove needs testing altogether.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Otherwise
someone could get addresses, transfer them away to a
needless entity, and repeat the process to drain the pool.
A non-starter, obviously. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
of course we needed to needs-test transfers then, but the
argument today is in the context of a drained free pool, and
so the logic behind RFC2050’s testing of transfers is
likewise draining away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Onto
this discussion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What
is happening in this discussion is, in my mind, the tail
wagging the dog.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It’s
as if your local property registrar in your county has
determined that when you buy a property, you are really
buying the listing at the registrar’s office.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Instead
of the fact that you are buying real property and the
registrar is merely registering your ownership, not
providing your rights to it. Just because IP addresses are
not tangible, like real property, doesn’t mean they only
exist as database entries in a registrar’s list. Especially
as we have demonstrated that that list is not dispositive
insofar as being able to utilize or transfer rights to
utilize the addresses. We all know that ARIN is not the
routing police.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What
David and other are saying is that your rights are to an
exclusive set of numbers to be used on the Internet, not to
a registry listing. And as proof of that position, they
point to the fact that address rights are transferred very
effectively without regards to the ARIN registry. There is
no denying this. Legacy sellers legally sell their rights
for money, buyers pay money and then use the addresses as
they wish, and ARIN’s registry has nothing to say.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">ARIN
has played typical historical role of the over-reaching
steward who comes to feel the resources being stewarded
belong to the steward and not the king. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
the answer to John’s question of what is being transferred?
The exclusive right to use a block of numbers on the
Internet, deriving from a continuous chain-of-custody of
rights granted legally by the US Department of Commerce. For
legacy holders, anyway. For non-legacy holders, their rights
derive from the RSA with ARIN, and ARIN’s rights derive from
their MoU with the US Department of Commerce. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagine
a thought experiment. I have a pool of 100 mutually
exclusive numbers of which one is a lotto winner. I can sell
each number to a buyer without a registry but with a
contract. If I sell the same number to two individuals,
those individuals can take legal actions based on the
contract that assures exclusivity. So there are legal rights
to numbers conferred via the contract that do not have
anything to do with a registry. I might use a registry to
keep track of things, but that is secondary to the legal
rights contractually conferred.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagine
a though experiment. I received an allocation from Jon
Postel, acting under the authority of the US Department of
Commerce. I have an email from him with the block numbers I
was assigned. I use the addresses for five years but then
find that they were not properly recorded by Mr. Postel, or
were incorrectly transferred to a subsequent registrar like
ARIN. Can’t I take the original email (the contract here)
to a judge and demand that the registry be changed to match
my email? Or, since the rights are “provided” by ARIN,
wouldn’t I be out of luck, since the rights are to a
registry entry, and the entry doesn’t match my email? In
other words, which is primary, a contract granting me
exclusive use of numbers on the Internet, or ARIN’s control
of their registry system?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A
registrar records property rights, it doesn’t create them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Mike
Burns<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Curran<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 02, 2015 10:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Conrad<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 2, 2015, at 9:04 AM, David
Conrad <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:drc@virtualized.org">drc@virtualized.org</a>>
wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John,<br>
<br>
On Jun 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, John Curran <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net">jcurran@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> Your confusion is likely over
what represents “correct attribution” - if ARIN
does not<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> operate the registry according
to the policies set by those who use it,<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
In your view, who uses "the registry"?<br>
<br>
Do network operators, anti-abuse community members,
law enforcement, consumer protection agencies, etc.,
make "use" of "the registry"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All of the above parties (and all of
them can participate in <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">defining the registry policy)<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">One can argue that the ARIN
community shouldn’t have policies that inhibit
transfers<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
One could, but I am not. I don't care if "the ARIN
community" comes up with a policy defining the sky
to be green. There are numerous mechanisms by which
the ARIN community can enforce policy such as a
prohibition against (particular) transfers: refuse
to delegate reverse DNS, refuse to update the ARIN
routing registry, imbed notifications of policy
violations in registration records, call the
out-of-policy transferees names, etc. None of these
defeat the very reason for the existence of the
registry. Refusing to update the registration
database does.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David - you seem to think that
there's some "thing" transferred <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">other than rights to the registry
entry itself; ie ARIN is "refusing <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to update the registration
database", as if it were a registration <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">of some independent item - an
automobile, for example. What <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">exactly are the IP address blocks
if not the registry entry that <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">was created when same is assigned? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is necessary to address this if
you are to claim of any accuracy <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">resulting from ARIN following
community policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> but I don’t think you’re
actually advocating that ARIN ignore community
policy in the<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> operation of the registry?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
The "community" that makes use of the registry
is larger than "ARIN".<br>
<br>
If the subset of the community that participates
in the definition of ARIN policy decided to
create a policy that effectively destroyed the
registration database, yes, I would definitely
advocate ARIN, the corporate entity (or, more
specifically, the ARIN board), ignore that
policy. I believe the board would actually have
a fiduciary responsibility to do so.<br>
<br>
I believe failure to maintain an accurate
registration database (defined to be one that
matches actual reality, not one that corresponds
to what an infinitesimal subset of the Internet
community thinks might be a good idea on any
particular day) is a violation of the trust Jon
Postel and the Internet community as a whole has
placed upon ARIN when ARIN was granted the
monopoly for registry services for the ARIN
service region.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Again, this assertion is based on
your interesting interpretation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">that ARIN should update the
register contrary to policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With respect to Jon and the time
of ARIN's formation, it is fairly<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">clear that the current policies
regarding need-based transfer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">would align quite well with his
expectations, especially since the<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">transfer policy at the time, as
stated in RFC 2050, was such:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style="page-break-before:always"><span style="font-family:"UICTFontTextStyleBody",serif">"7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR."</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Could you please clarify if
that is what you are suggesting?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
That ARIN abide by RFC 7020, section 2.3 and
section 7.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Done. You have yet to explain
how and what is actual transferred<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">that differs from the rights to
the entry in the IP registry. If there is<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">something else transferred (and
thus discrepancy if the registry is<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">not updated), please elucidate.
If indeed the IP address block is<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">one and the same with the rights
to entry in the registry, there is <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">no inconsistency at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One more time:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Historically, the point
of the registry database was to facilitate
management<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">of the network, e.g., a
place you could look up registration
information<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">when you wanted to
contact the entity associated with the
source address.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">In the post IPv4 free
pool world, what's the point of the American
_Registry_<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">for Internet Numbers
again?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Your continued attempts to dodge this question
is getting depressing.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The actual use of the registry has to
obtain the place where you <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_start_ such a process, noting that
ISP's/LIRs delegate blocks <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to organizations, and that the real
world has things like LOA's<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">that are often used, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">None of this has changed - you still
start the process with the <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">registry, and need to pursue to find
the operational contact you <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">seek. ARIN following its community
policy doesn't change this<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">in the least, and you probably are
aware of this reality existed<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">long before any transfer market.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">/John<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">John Curran<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">President and CEO<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ARIN<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
================================================================
Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.wholesaleinternet.com">http://www.wholesaleinternet.com</a>
================================================================ </pre>
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