<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Anti-flip shouldn't matter the moment there's no free pool left to allocate from.</div><div><br></div><div>Unless you have some misguided notion that policy hacks are really going to meaningfully impact the full-fledged transfer-only market for v4 space. There's so many ways to structure transactions that policy attempts will be futile.<br><br>Matthew Kaufman<div><br>(Sent from my iPhone)</div></div><div><br>On May 31, 2015, at 11:10 AM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8">I don’t think anyone has said any such thing, Milton.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">What we have said is that it seems impossible to allow relaxed inter-RIR transfers within an organization in a way that preserves the anti-flip provisions the community has deemed necessary without having globally coordinated policy for the anti-flip provisions.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Whether you support having such a thing or not, that much seems to be simply the facts of the situation.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The policy in China is unrelated except to the extent that it was used as an example of a reason that relaxed transfer policy is needed.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 31, 2015, at 7:49 AM, Milton L Mueller <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" class="">mueller@syr.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">It’s very naïve for people to suggest that national policy in China is going to be affected by a global policy of RIRs.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">--MM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a name="_MailEndCompose" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></a></div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Rudolph Daniel<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 30, 2015 5:49 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">>>>That?s why I didn?t propose language? I don?t think the issue in question can be unilaterally addressed, so I think we should accept that and those that are interested can begin work on a globally coordinated policy if they desire to do so.<<<<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Tend to agree ...It may be better addressed at global policy level if at all.<br class="">RD<o:p class=""></o:p></p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On May 30, 2015 12:00 PM, <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-request@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml-request@arin.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br class=""><br class="">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br class="">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-request@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml-request@arin.net</a><br class=""><br class="">You can reach the person managing the list at<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-owner@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml-owner@arin.net</a><br class=""><br class="">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br class="">than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..."<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Today's Topics:<br class=""><br class=""> 1. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers<br class=""> to Specified Recipients) (Owen DeLong)<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">Message: 1<br class="">Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 18:16:34 -0700<br class="">From: Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a>><br class="">To: Jason Schiller <<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jschiller@google.com</a>><br class="">Cc: "<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br class="">Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2: Modify 8.4<br class=""> (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)<br class="">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:8A9F435E-20BF-4E90-9141-99A7D93FC6EE@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">8A9F435E-20BF-4E90-9141-99A7D93FC6EE@delong.com</a>><br class="">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br class=""><br class="">If it were enforceable, it would address my concern.<br class=""><br class="">The problem is that we are then looking to have an ARIN contract enjoin an action by the organization in another RIR which I am not sure would give us any recourse whatsoever were that contract to be violated.<br class=""><br class="">That?s why I didn?t propose language? I don?t think the issue in question can be unilaterally addressed, so I think we should accept that and those that are interested can begin work on a globally coordinated policy if they desire to do so.<br class=""><br class="">We?ve already seen that attempting to unilaterally influence minimum policy requirements on other regions is unlikely to work. Witness RIPEs recent ?workaround? to ?compatible needs basis?. I am not especially interested in expanding this problem space.<br class=""><br class="">Owen<br class=""><br class="">> On May 29, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Jason Schiller <<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jschiller@google.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">><br class="">> Owen,<br class="">><br class="">> So does this text cover your proposal then?<br class="">><br class="">> Draft Policy ARIN-2015-2<br class="">> Modify 8.4 (Inter-RIR Transfers to Specified Recipients)<br class="">><br class="">> Date: 26 May 2015<br class="">><br class="">> Problem Statement:<br class="">><br class="">> Organizations that obtain a 24 month supply of IP addresses via the<br class="">> transfer market and then have an unexpected change in business plan<br class="">> are unable to move IP addresses to the proper RIR within the first 12<br class="">> months of receipt.<br class="">><br class="">> Policy statement:<br class="">><br class="">> Replace 8.4, bullet 4, to read:<br class="">><br class="">> "> Source entities within the ARIN region must not have received a<br class="">> transfer, allocation, or assignment of IPv4 number resources<br class="">> from ARIN for the 12 months prior to the approval of a transfer<br class="">> request.<br class="">> - This restriction does not include M&A transfers.<br class="">> - This restriction does not include a transfer to a wholly owned<br class="">> subsidiary out side of the ARIN service region<br class="">> if the recipient org will be required to not transfer any IP space<br class="">> for the remaining balance of 12 month window."<br class="">><br class="">><br class="">> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 4:06 AM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">><br class="">>> On May 28, 2015, at 6:46 AM, Jason Schiller <<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jschiller@google.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jschiller@google.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">>><br class="">>> Owen,<br class="">>><br class="">>> How does that differ from the policy text I sent?<br class="">>><br class="">>> Can you send an idea of policy text?<br class="">>><br class="">>> I thought the text I sent said that an ARIN org can transfer IPs out to another wholely owned subsidiary in another RIR region if they have been the recipient of transfer in less that 12 months IF the recipient org will be required (read by recipient's RIR policy) to hold the transfered resource for the balance of the 12 months.<br class="">>><br class="">>><br class="">> Your proposal allows substitution.<br class="">><br class="">> ARIN->Other RIR space A<br class="">> Space B Other RIR-> Money/etc.<br class="">><br class="">> I want to see substitution transfers prohibited.<br class="">><br class="">> Owen<br class="">><br class="">>> ___Jason<br class="">>><br class="">>> On May 28, 2015 8:31 AM, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">>> Or simply not permit it under ARIN policy until such exists.<br class="">>><br class="">>> Owen<br class="">>><br class="">>> > On May 28, 2015, at 1:49 PM, John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jcurran@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jcurran@arin.net</a>>> wrote:<br class="">>> ><br class="">>> > On May 27, 2015, at 11:39 PM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:<br class="">>> >><br class="">>> >> My suggestion is that I don't mind (virtually) unrestricted moves of addresses to different regions staying with the same organization. However, if we are to allow that, I want us to find a way that you can't merely use that as a way to move addresses out of flip protection to then flip them to another organization via an RIR with a less restrictive transfer policy.<br class="">>> >><br class="">>> >> So... If you transfer addresses to another region, keeping them in the same organization, no penalty. However, you are not allowed to subsequently transfer them (or other addresses in that region) to an external party for at least 12 months.<br class="">>> ><br class="">>> > That second portion that you seek would affect the ongoing operation of<br class="">>> > another RIR, i.e. it requires them having some explicit policy to that effect.<br class="">>> ><br class="">>> > To obtain the result you seek, we either need globally coordinated transfer<br class="">>> > policy in this area, or you need to make the inter-RIR transfer policy explicit<br class="">>> > in this regard in determination of compatibility.<br class="">>> ><br class="">>> > /John<br class="">>> ><br class="">>> > John Curran<br class="">>> > President and CEO<br class="">>> > ARIN<br class="">>> ><br class="">>> ><br class="">>> ><br class="">>> ><br class="">>><br class="">><br class="">><br class="">><br class="">><br class="">> --<br class="">> _______________________________________________________<br class="">> Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jschiller@google.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><mailto:<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jschiller@google.com</a>>|<a href="tel:571-266-0006" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">571-266-0006</a><br class="">><br class=""><br class="">-------------- next part --------------<br class="">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br class="">URL: <<a href="http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20150529/10dd910c/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20150529/10dd910c/attachment-0001.html</a>><br class=""><br class="">------------------------------<br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">ARIN-PPML mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; 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