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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Obviously we can agree that we disagree about this, but the simple way to solve this problem would be to remove needs tests on the smallest allocation of at least
a /24. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I would point out that keeping needs testing on the smallest size allocation is equivalent to making the decision that it is OK to not Advance (ARIN’s mission)
the Internet at the small end as the smallest orgs have the toughest time meeting needs requirements. If that is really the decision this community wants to make - then in my opinion - at least it should admit that is the decision it is making.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><img width="56" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D01864.2787C5B0" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bill Darte [mailto:billdarte@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 15, 2014 12:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jo Rhett; arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Steve said:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">By that definition, I wonder if Jobs and Wozniak needed IP resources today for their garage - could they get them? Whether you like what they did or not they
certainly have advanced the Internet. And if John and Sue are working in their garage today and need a /24 or a /22 from ARIN to further the Internet, can they get them? With today’s policies – probably not as they might not have a business plan yet, or
signed contract with contractors, or gotten their funding - or any other measure of need that is currently indoctrinated in policy. What a shame! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">You paint a bleak and I believe obfuscating picture with your example...IF they NEEDED as you say a /22 or /24 they can justify it. Without a business plan or
signed contracts, how can one assess the stated need against the risk of assigning addresses to them when others more prepared are able to justify their need more completely. Of course your hindsight example makes us all sympathetic for those wonderful entrepreneurs...but
how do we, in real time, estimate John and Sue's entrepreneurial outcomes in with no information in order to give them the benefit of the doubt? No. Let's keep giving out addresses to those with a business plan, contracts and demonstrable need. And, of course
even then...some brilliant entrepreneur may come one day and there will be NO v4 addresses for them or anyone else....that would be a shame too....That would be especially shameful if the community were out because of a foolish practice of giving out addresses
to those who don't really need them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">And besides...there is v6...now and in the future for the true entrepreneur...surely they will be able to figure out a way to use them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">By that definition, I wonder if Jobs and Wozniak needed IP resources today for their garage - could
they get them? Whether you like what they did or not they certainly have advanced the Internet. And if John and Sue are working in their garage today and need a /24 or a /22 from ARIN to further the Internet, can they get them? With today’s policies – probably
not as they might not have a business plan yet, or signed contract with contractors, or gotten their funding - or any other measure of need that is currently indoctrinated in policy. What a shame!
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">www.eclipse-networks.com</a></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:770.656.1460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:770.399.9099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a>- Office</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="56" height="37" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D01864.2787C5B0" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in">
<sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bill Darte [mailto:<a href="mailto:billdarte@gmail.com" target="_blank">billdarte@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 15, 2014 6:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jo Rhett; <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Steven Ryerse said: <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure needs based policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the real mission of advancing
the Internet. Regardless of your personal definition of need, why is some org who doesn't have a need (as currently defined by policy) now precluded from getting resources? How does that advance the Internet?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The community through ARIN is ensuring that the distribution of v4 IP addresses are according to its policies which have been and should continue to be needs-based..IMO. They are
not 'caught up' in the sense that they cannot proceed...ndeed, they are doing the precise business that policy and its mission calls for. That some orgs that cannot meet the needs hurdle are denied...does not mean that others who truly have a need are not
serviced. Those with clear need advance the Internet and do so demonstrably...whereas those without a demonstrable need MAY advance the Internet as well, but its a greater risk to the community and one which the community has chosen to forgo.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Bill Darte<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:17 AM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Though it has been a few months since I made those comments, I appreciate your feedback. Your description of "walk away with someone else’s belongings" seems to indicate that somehow
the use of the Internet and the IP addresses that make the use of the Internet possible, is owned by ARIN or this Community or maybe ARIN and this Community.<br>
<br>
I find that line of thinking about as far as one can get from the spirit of Jon Postel and the way he went about advancing the Internet. When I read the original Mission Statement for ARIN or even the current one, I don't see that "needs" are more important
than the actual mission of advancement and allocation. Good stewardship should be practiced but NOT to the detriment of the mission of advancement and allocation.<br>
<br>
In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure needs based policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the real mission of advancing the Internet. Regardless of your personal definition of need, why is some org who doesn't have a need (as
currently defined by policy) now precluded from getting resources? How does that advance the Internet? I never met Jon Postel but from what I've heard about him, I suspect he would frown on some of the current policies regarding needs. My comments below
and others I have made are intended to try to bring some balance into the discussion and my hope is that some day in the near future that will happen. I certainly don't desire there be no rules at all but the very loose rules followed by Jon Postel worked
pretty well advancing the Internet. I think we could loosen the current policies like has been done in other regions and it would have a positive outcome. My two cents.<br>
<br>
Steven Ryerse<br>
President<br>
100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<br>
<a href="http://www.eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">www.eclipse-networks.com</a><br>
<a href="tel:770.656.1460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell<br>
<a href="tel:770.399.9099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a>- Office<br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">℠</span> Eclipse Networks, Inc.<br>
Conquering Complex Networks<span style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">℠</span><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jo Rhett [mailto:<a href="mailto:jrhett@netconsonance.com" target="_blank">jrhett@netconsonance.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 12:17 AM<br>
To: Steven Ryerse<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use<br>
<br>
On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:23 PM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> If in the spirit of trying to prevent fraud non-fraudulent requests get rejected, then Arin's mission stops being fulfilled. I think it is important to make sure the mission is respected first and stopping fraud second or third or fifth or whatever. We
could stop all fraud by stopping all allocations but of course that makes no sense. I would also point out that even when fraud happens Arin's Mission is still being fulfilled.<br>
<br>
I completely disagree. There are dozens if not hundreds of people with non-fraudulent requests who get denied for insufficient justification. That is ARIN doing their job successfully in my mind. If widespread fraud occurs and ARIN does not take action, then
I feel strongly that ARIN would not be doing their job.<br>
<br>
> Of course maybe if the needs tests were loosened fraud would be significantly reduced as there would be no need to submit fraudulent requests.<br>
<br>
Do you mean that if it were permissible to walk away with someone else’s belongings, then theft would no longer occur? Your statement is true without making any sense at all.<br>
<br>
> I'm sure an org willing to submit a fraudulent request would tell you that they do have a need but they may not happen to meet the current arbitrary (and they are arbitrary) policy.<br>
<br>
I disagree completely. ARIN’s role is to satisfy needs-based requests. Exercising judgement of whether a need is realistic is doing their job.<br>
<br>
The only thing arbitrary here is your desire for there to be no rules at all. Deeply amusing, but not helpful for realistic policy.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jo Rhett<br>
<a href="tel:%2B1%20%28415%29%20999-1798" target="_blank">+1 (415) 999-1798</a><br>
Skype: jorhett<br>
Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet projects.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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