<div dir="ltr">sorry I messed up the dates...<div><br></div><div>In the first example for ABC Trucking those should have all been 2014 dates:</div><div><br></div><div><div>/24 - 06/19/2014</div><div>/22 - 07/10/2014</div><div>/21 - 08/01/2014</div><div>/20 - 08/22/2014</div></div><div><br></div><div>The idea being all their ISP space was within a 90 day look back window.</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for the confusion.</div><div><br></div><div>__Jason</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Jason Schiller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank">jschiller@google.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Comments in line.<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 4:08 PM, David Huberman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:David.Huberman@microsoft.com" target="_blank">David.Huberman@microsoft.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>First, a direct reply to Jason, who wrote:<br>
>So we wanted some requirement to prevent someone<br>
>from spinning up Orgs just to get space with no intention of using it.<br>
<br>
</span>I don't like writing policy which tries to outsmart scammers. Scammers represent a fraction of a percent of ARIN transactions. We should write policy that makes good technical sense for the 99%. Also, this is 8.3 transfers - space bought on a market, and recognized in ARIN's Whois. In my experience no matter how section 8 is written, bad actors will buy the space they want to do bad things with, use it, and dump it - with or without allowances to update ARIN's Whois.<br>
<br>
Second, a comment about 2014-20: how do these common scenarios work in the proposed policy:<br>
<br>
Scenario 1:<br>
ABC Trucking Company (an end-user) has 29 /24s of space from ISP. ABC is going to disco from that ISP, and is going to buy space on the market to renumber into and grow. Based on their 2 year projections, they've decided to buy a /16 on the market. Do they qualify to transfer the entire /16 under 2014-20?<br>
<br></blockquote></span><div>There is not enough information here to answer, so I'm going to make some more stuff up.</div><div><div><div>ABC Trucking Company got the following ISP blocks</div><div><br></div><div>/24 - 06/19/2014</div><div>/22 - 07/10/2011</div><div>/21 - 08/01/2012</div><div>/20 - 08/22/2014</div></div><div><br></div><div><div>Today, 9/15/2014 ABC Trucking Company demonstrates that they are using 7,423 or more IPs. </div><div>((29*(2^(32-24)))*0.8)</div><div><br></div><div>Under 8.3.2.3.1 ABC Trucking Company qualifies to make one or more transfers up to 29 /24s.</div><div>They also qualify under 8.3.2.3.2.</div><div><br></div><div>Choosing a 90 day look back window, they can show they used 29 /24s and qualify for 4*29= 116 /24s</div><div>They can immediately transfer in a /18, /19, /20 and a /22.</div></div><div><br></div><div>They could choose to transfer in a /18 and a /19.</div><div>They could renumber their ISP space into the /19, and use the /18 and the remainder of the three /24s out of the /19 for growth over the next 90 days </div><div><br></div><div>on 12/13/2014 they could again re-demonstrate they are over 80%.</div><div>They then qualify under 8.3.2.3.1 to double again</div><div>They also qualify under 8.3.2.3.2.</div><div><br></div><div>Choosing a 90 day look back window, they can show they used a /18 and three /24s and qualify for four times that amount, a /16, /20, and a /21<br></div><div><br></div><div>They could choose to transfer in a /16.</div></div><div><br></div><div>---------------------</div><div><br></div><div>Alternatively, ABC Trucking might have had slow growth in the past... in that case it would look like:</div><div><br></div><div>ABC Trucking Company got the following ISP blocks<br></div><div>/24 - 03/01/2010</div><div>/24 - 03/01/2011</div><div>/24 - 06/01/2011</div><div>/23 - 09/01/2011</div><div>/21 - 09/01/2012</div><div>/20 - 09/01/2013</div><div><br></div><div>Today, 9/15/2014 ABC Trucking Company demonstrates that they are using 7,423 or more IPs. </div><div>((29*(2^(32-24)))*0.8)</div><div><br></div><div>Under 8.3.2.3.1 ABC Trucking Company qualifies to make one or more transfers up to 29 /24s.</div><div>(say a /20, /21, /22 and a /24).</div><div><br></div><div>They can transfer these all in on 9/15/2014.</div><div>They take 30 days to renumber and return the ISP space. </div><div>They return all but three ISP /24s blocks. </div><div>This is because they have added three more /24s worth of growth to their new space from transfers. </div><div>They are holding a /20, /21, /22 and a /24 and and three ISP /24s.</div><div><br></div><div>On 10/15/2014 they again re-demonstrate they are over 80%.</div><div>They then qualify under 8.3.2.3.1 to double again, and can make one or more transfers up to a /19.</div><div>say they transfer a /23 and a /24. </div><div>They could then return the final ISP space, and re-demonstrate 80% utilization.</div><div><br></div><div><div>On 11/01/2014 they again re-demonstrate they are over 80%.</div></div><div><div>They then qualify under 8.3.2.3.1 to double again, and can make one or more transfers up to a /19.</div><div>say they transfer a /19 and grow into that /19 over the next 90 days.</div></div><div>They are now holding a /19, /20, /21, /22, /23 and two /24s.</div><div><br></div><div>On 1/30/2015 they again re-demonstrate they are over 80%.</div><div>They then qualify under 8.3.2.3.1 to double again (another /19), BUT they can also qualify under 8.3.2.3.2.<br></div><div>Choosing a look back window from 1/30/2015 to 11/01/2014, they can demonstrate they used a /19 in 90 days.</div><div>This yields the ability to transfer in a /17.</div><div>Say they transfer in a /18</div><div>They are now holding a /18, /19, /20, /21, /22, /23 and two /24s.</div><div><br></div><div>If they make no further transfers then if they can demonstrate 80% utilization on or before 4/30/2015 they qualify for a /16, and if they transfer in a /16, they would be holding a /16, /18, /19, /20, /21, /22, /23 and two /24s.</div><div><br></div><div>If they make no further transfers, under 8.3.2.3.1 ABC Trucking Company qualifies to make one or more transfers up to 29 /24s.</div><div>(say a /20, /21, /22 and a /24).nsfers then if they can demonstrate after 4/30/2015 that they have 80% utilization they qualify for doubling ( another /17) and would be holding two /17, /18, /19, /20, /21, /22, /23 and two /24s. They would holding the equivalent of a /16.</div><div><br></div><div>They have the option at anytime to transfer in more blocks up to a /18. </div><div> </div><div>===============</div><span class=""><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Scenario 2:<br>
XYZ Cloud Hosting Company (also an end-user, but could argue to be an ISP if it wanted) has a /20 from ARIN. They want to buy a /15 that's available on the market for cheap, because they hope that's what they'll use in 2 years, and the price of the /15 is right. Do they qualify for an 8.3 transfer under 2014-20 as an EU and/or as an ISP?<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>It doesn't make a difference. The amount of space an organization gets is based on how much they are currently using, or how much they used in their look back window. </div><div><br></div><div>The only substantial difference between end-use and ISP is for new organizations.</div><div>1. ISP can book IPs allocated/assigned for current customers or customer orders</div><div>2. End-users get a starting block of up to a /24 and ISPs of up to /21 </div><div><br></div><div><div>This means an rapidly growing End-user would need to complete three transfers to catch up to a new ISP who could start with a /21 if they have the appropriate documentation. </div></div><div><div><div><br></div><div>transfer 1: /24 total final holding /24</div></div><div>transfer 2: /24 - used a /24 in less than 90 days, qualify for a /21</div><div>transfer 3: /19 - used a /21 in less than 90 days, qualify for a /19</div><div><br></div><div>OR transfer 3: /21 - used up the /21 in more than 90 days, can double up to a /21 and a /24.</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>This means an large End-user would need to complete four transfer through doubling to catch up to a new ISP who could start with a /21 if they have the appropriate documentation. </div><div><br></div><div>through doubling that would be:</div><div>transfer 1: /24 total final holding /24</div><div>transfer 2: /24 total final holding two /24s</div><div>transfer 3: /23 total final holding one /23, and two /24s</div><div>transfer 4: /22 total final holding one /22, one /23, and two /24s </div><div><br></div><div>=======================</div><span class=""><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Scenario 3:<br>
XXLarge ARIN company has 1 million IP addresses from ARIN. They buy the exclusive first rights to a /8 worth of address space in the open market. Under 2014-20, how much space can they transfer into ARIN on day 1, and how much space has to sit in the old company's name?<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>As soon as XXLarge ARIN company can demonstrate that 80% of their 1 million IPs are in use, they can transfer the entire /8 since it is less than double of what they are currently holding.</div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thanks for indulging me. I'm trying to understand how 2014-20 will act in what I think are real-world scenarios,<br>
/david<br>
</blockquote></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>The short description of the policy for orgs holding addresses is </div><div class="gmail_extra">1. do nothing until you can show 80% utilization on average</div><div class="gmail_extra">2. When you cross 80% you qualify to double in size.</div><div class="gmail_extra">3. If your growth rate over the most recent 3-12 months is more than doubling, you qualify for a 2 year run rate instead of doubling.</div><div class="gmail_extra">4. You can complete one or more transfers up to the amount you are qualified for.</div><div class="gmail_extra">5. (You can always choose to transfer less than you qualify for) </div><div class="gmail_extra">6. At any time you can re-demonstrate 80% and re-qualify</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">David, is does this help you understand how the policy is intended to be used?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Thanks,</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">__Jason</div><span class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><font color="#555555" face="'courier new', monospace"><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial"><font color="#555555" face="'courier new', monospace">_______________________________________________________<br></font><div><font face="'courier new', monospace">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank">jschiller@google.com</a>|<a href="tel:571-266-0006" value="+15712660006" target="_blank">571-266-0006</a></font></div><div><font face="'courier new', monospace"><br></font></div></span></div></font>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><font color="#555555" face="'courier new', monospace"><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial"><font color="#555555" face="'courier new', monospace">_______________________________________________________<br></font><div><font face="'courier new', monospace">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank">jschiller@google.com</a>|571-266-0006</font></div><div><font face="'courier new', monospace"><br></font></div></span></div></font>
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