<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Hi Jason,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I apologize for not commenting on this earlier, I decided to sit back and
see what other input was received.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think that you have correctly identified in your problem statement
certain issues we face at the near-exhaust stage and beyond.</DIV>
<DIV>ARIN allocation policy was always premised on the free pool, and we have
decided to borrow the same policy and apply it to the wholly new environment of
a trading market.</DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>You correctly identify issues like transactional
costs which are imposed on recipients as a result of free-pool premised policies
whose authors did not consider these implications.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>You note that ARIN policy does not efficiently
accommodate various recipient growth profiles, especially as any wiggle-room is
squeezed out of every allocation by a team of ARIN reviewers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>We can expect more such problems as market forces
tend to diverge from ARIN policy prescriptions, and it is my belief that the
weight of these distortions puts a strain on Whois accuracy as more money flows
into this market. When business needs are faced-up against ARIN policy, at
a certain point the business risk of inadequate allocation overrides the risk of
an out-of-policy transfer. And these out-of-policy transfers can happen by
multiple means, including phased-contracts, permanent leasing, and zombie
corporations which ARIN policy can’t touch. ARIN policy is a market distortion
which will likely grow larger over time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Rather than try to put our finger in the dyke
through more and more NRPM verbiage, isn’t it time we acknowledged that a
separate allocation paradigm exists in the trading market which requires a
separate (or absent) needs-test for transfers? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>I believe that every circumstance elucidated in
your proposal is answered by the much more streamlined 2014-14, which removes
needs testing from transfers smaller than a /16, once per year. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>I am against further un-necessary clutter in the
NRPM, and if we seek to match every unknown and unknowable vagary of the
impending transfer market with new policy, we open the door to a virtual tax
code of text. Here is one of your new sections:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt">8.3.2.3.2.1 Calculation of Monthly Average Use
Rate</FONT></SPAN><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt"><BR
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT: 12px/18px arial, helvetica, sans-serif; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt">An organization may choose a look-back window of any
number of months between 3 and 12, inclusive, from the date of the current
request. ARIN will calculate the total amount of new addresses acquired, during
the look-back window, by the organization from non-M&A transfers, direct
allocations or assignments from ARIN, or reallocations or reassignments from an
ISP. That total will be divided by the number of months in the look-back window
to calculate the organization’s monthly average use rate.</FONT></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>8.3.2.3.2.1?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>While I support the recognition of the problems
Jason identified, I am opposed to 2014-20. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>(Also I would counsel against regarding silence
as approval.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Mike Burns</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jschiller@google.com
href="mailto:jschiller@google.com">Jason Schiller</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 12, 2014 12:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=owens@nysernet.org
href="mailto:owens@nysernet.org">owens@nysernet.org</A> ; <A
title=kevinb@thewire.ca href="mailto:kevinb@thewire.ca">Kevin Blumberg</A> ; <A
title=farmer@umn.edu href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu">David Farmer</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=arin-ppml@arin.net
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-20: Transfer Policy
Slow Start and Simplified Needs Verification</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>It has been a week, and there has been no discussion on this
thread.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I take the silence to mean the suggested "option 2" rewrite is
non-controversial and meets all of Bill's concerns.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I also take the silence to mean that all three options I have suggested all
result in the same implementation, </DIV>
<DIV>and since no one believes any of the three options differ in
implementation, there is no preference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I humbly submit we should go with option 2, as it is closest to Bill's
suggestion, and keeps 8.2 and 8.3 in line </DIV>
<DIV>(setting the ground work for a future unification of 8.2 and 8.3).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Will there be discussion now? Or should we just silently move
forward?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>___Jason</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jason Schiller <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jschiller@google.com"
target=_blank>jschiller@google.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV dir=ltr>Bill,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thank you.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The intent was NOT to remove the <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">requirement for
in-region recipients of transfers to sign an RSA.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="arial, sans-serif">My apologies. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="arial, sans-serif">There is a lot or parallel structure in
8.3 and 8.4 and in my mind 8.4 is identical to 8.3 except 8.4 has a clause
"Except when the </FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">recipient</SPAN><FONT
face="arial, sans-serif"> is out of region then that region's policy applies",
and " </FONT><FONT face="arial, sans-serif">Except when the </FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">source</SPAN><FONT
face="arial, sans-serif"> is out of region then that region's policy
applies". I really wanted to completely merge 8.3 and 8.4 to remove the
parallel structure but as an editorial re-write only and not part of this
discussion. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>in 8.4 there are a
separate bullets for 24-month supply and sign the RSA:<BR>
<DIV>"> Recipients within the ARIN region will be subject to current ARIN
policies and sign an RSA for the resources being received.<BR>> Recipients
within the ARIN region must demonstrate the need for up to a 24-month supply
of IPv4 address space."
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think in my mind I imagined a similar separate bullets in 8.3, one for
24-month supply and another for sign RSA, and I intended just to remove the 24
month part. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think there are a few ways to fix this.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Option 1 - minimun rewrtite</DIV>
<DIV>- remove only the "24-month" portion of the 8.3 text. This is the minimum
change, but brings section 8.3 and 8.4 further out of alignment</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Option 2 - single bullet for "meet ARIN policy" and "sign RSA" (8.3 as
the model text)</DIV>
<DIV>- replace the whole "24-month" text and "meet ARIN policy" text in 8.3
with a bullet that included "sign the RSA" and "meet ARIN policy" under one
bullet and is parallel to text in 8.4 (minus within the ARIN region)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Option 3 - two separate bullets for "meet ARIN policy" and "sign RSA"
(8.2 as the model text) </DIV>
<DIV>- replace the whole "24-month" text in 8.3 with a bullet that included
"sign the RSA"</DIV>
<DIV>-separate the "sign the RSA" and "meet ARIN policy" in 8.4 into two
bullets and is parallel to text in 8.3 (plus the within ARIN
region)</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(If the summary of the options are hard to follow I have a suggestion for
the specific rewrites below)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think your suggestion is roughly Option 2 below (the only difference is
with your suggested rewrite, there are now two bullets in 8.3 stating the
recipient is subject to current ARIN policies). Assuming all the options
have the same policy implications, I would prefer option 2 or 3, as these
bring greater alignment of the sections. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do these options all meet your concern?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Does the community and ARIN staff agree that the thee options have the
same policy implications?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kevin, David,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think at this point you own the text?</DIV>
<DIV>I would be supportive of the friendly amendment to modify the draft
policy as follows:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">OPTION
1:</SPAN></DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Replace the
following Section 8.3 text:</SPAN><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR>"> The
recipient must demonstrate the need for up to a 24-month supply<BR> of
IP address resources under current ARIN policies and sign an<BR>
RSA."</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"> </DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">with:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">">
</SPAN>Recipients will sign an RSA for the resources being received."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OPTION 2:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Replace the following
Section 8.3 text:</SPAN><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN><BR><FONT face="arial, sans-serif">"> The recipient must
demonstrate the need for up to a 24-month supply</FONT><BR><FONT
face="arial, sans-serif"> of IP address resources under current ARIN
policies and sign an</FONT><BR> RSA.<BR></SPAN> > The resources
transferred will be subject to current ARIN policies.<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"> </DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">with:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"> Recipients will be subject to current ARIN policies and sign an RSA
for the resources being received."<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OPTION 3:</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Replace the
following Section 8.3 text:</SPAN><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR>"> The
recipient must demonstrate the need for up to a 24-month supply<BR> of
IP address resources under current ARIN policies and sign an<BR>
RSA."</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"> </DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">with:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">">
</SPAN>Recipients will sign an RSA for the resources being
received."</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>and replace the following Section 8.4 text:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>"> Recipients within the ARIN region will be subject to
current ARIN policies and sign an RSA for the resources being
received.<BR> > Recipients within the ARIN region must demonstrate
the need for up to a 24-month supply of IPv4 address space."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"> Recipients within the ARIN region will sign an RSA for the
resources being received.</DIV>
<DIV>> The resources transferred to recipients within the ARIN region will
be subject to current ARIN policies."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If all the options are indeed the same I would prefer option 2 or
3.</DIV>
<DIV>If the options have different policy implications and we can converge on
one standard for both 8.2 and 8.3, then I would prefer that.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>___Jason</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Bill Owens <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:owens@nysernet.org"
target=_blank>owens@nysernet.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>On Wed, Sep 03, 2014 at 04:55:58PM -0400, ARIN wrote:<BR>> On 28
August 2014 the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) accepted<BR>> "ARIN-prop-212
Transfer policy slow start and simplified needs<BR>> verification" as a
Draft Policy.<BR>><BR></DIV>. . .<BR>
<DIV>><BR>> Draft Policy ARIN-2014-20<BR>> Transfer Policy Slow
Start and Simplified Needs Verification<BR>><BR>> Date: 3 September
2014<BR>><BR></DIV>. . .<BR>
<DIV>><BR>> Policy statement:<BR>><BR>> Remove the following
section 8.3 text:<BR>><BR>> “The recipient must demonstrate the need
for up to a 24-month supply<BR>> of IP address resources under current
ARIN policies and sign an<BR>> RSA.”<BR><BR></DIV>Shouldn't that be
something like this, instead?<BR><BR>Replace the following Section 8.3
text:<BR>
<DIV><BR>"The recipient must demonstrate the need for up to a 24-month
supply<BR> of IP address resources under current ARIN policies and
sign an<BR> RSA.”<BR><BR></DIV>with:<BR><BR>"The recipient will be
subject to current ARIN policies and sign an<BR> RSA for the resources
being received."<BR><BR>As written it appears to remove the requirement for
recipients of in-region transfers to sign an RSA.<BR><SPAN><FONT
color=#888888><BR>Bill.<BR></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>PPML<BR>You are
receiving this message because you are subscribed to<BR>the ARIN Public
Policy Mailing List (<A href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
target=_blank>ARIN-PPML@arin.net</A>).<BR>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing
list subscription at:<BR><A
href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
target=_blank>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</A><BR>Please
contact <A href="mailto:info@arin.net" target=_blank>info@arin.net</A> if
you experience any issues.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV><SPAN class=HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>--
<BR><FONT color=#555555 face="'courier new', monospace">
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><FONT color=#555555
face="'courier new', monospace">_______________________________________________________<BR></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="'courier new', monospace">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<A
href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target=_blank>jschiller@google.com</A>|<A
href="tel:571-266-0006" target=_blank
value="+15712660006">571-266-0006</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face="'courier new', monospace"><BR></FONT></DIV></SPAN></DIV></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all>
<DIV> </DIV>-- <BR><FONT color=#555555 face="'courier new', monospace">
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><FONT color=#555555
face="'courier new', monospace">_______________________________________________________<BR></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="'courier new', monospace">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<A
href="mailto:jschiller@google.com"
target=_blank>jschiller@google.com</A>|571-266-0006</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face="'courier new', monospace"><BR></FONT></DIV></SPAN></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>PPML<BR>You are receiving
this message because you are subscribed to<BR>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing
List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).<BR>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
subscription at:<BR>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml<BR>Please
contact info@arin.net if you experience any
issues.</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>