<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1636334194;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-1376516632 1284781920 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-start-at:5;
mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0D8;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-ansi-font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:#1F497D;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Jason<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Schiller<br>
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">></span>I oppose as written, but support the concept.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">></span>(I oppose this version more that the previous version)<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That’s odd, because the previous version had the same hard limits. It was simply defined as “incidental use” and created 3 categories of such use. In this respect,
there is no substantive difference between the two versions. This one is just simpler. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>There was some idea in the original policy that this additional burden could
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>be avoided if the out of region use was only "incidental", yielding this /20 text.
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">></span> I argued that a hard limit of a /20 is not a fair dividing line for incidental. <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>Many small organizations will never need more that a /20. Such a large hard
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>limit suggests that the need to prove no double counting or no sitting on <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>underutilized resources from another RIR does not apply to small sites. <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It does indeed mean that, and it also means that the time and effort required by ARIN staff to monitor such smaller sites may simply not be worth it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If your point here is that this limit is “unfair” to large organizations you are going to have trouble finding much sympathy here. Larger organizations consume
more resources and thus merit closer attention. Fixed reporting costs are, proportionately, a larger cost to small organizations than to larger ones. The fixed limits save ARIN from expending a lot of effort for very small potential gains, and save small orgs
from burdensome requirements. For organizations with larger use of number resources, the stakes are higher in terms of resource consumptions and the potential unfairness of double counting, so the extra monitoring effort is worth it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">></span> Either make it a percentage of total such "When a request for resources
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Earlier proposals by David already explained why percentages don’t work. Percentages vary with the total amount of resources one has and thus one could fluctuate
in and out of the limit as one grows. That doesn’t make sense. Besides, the concept of “incidental use” implies more of an absolute limit than one relative to one’s other holdings. “Incidentalness” is relative to ARIN pools, not the users’ holdings.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">></span>This proposal seems to go further and suggest that any ARIN space and other RIR
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>space must be efficiently utilized by ARIN's definition of efficient utilization.<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That was not the intent – the intent was to ensure that only ARIN resources are efficiently utilized by ARIN’s standards.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#1F497D">></span>I believe I could get on board with the following two changes: <br>
<span style="color:#1F497D">></span><br>
<span style="color:#1F497D">></span>1. If you drop the hard limit either making it a percentage of total use,
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>or always require reporting of usage of IP space held by other RIRs<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I would not be willing to do that, for reasons stated above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>2. change " The report must demonstrate that all resources currently available
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>for use within the requested service region are efficiently utilized based on
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>applicable ARIN policy." to some text about ARIN validating out of region <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>space no less than an equivalent standard. possibly "All ARIN registered <span style="color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>resources used outside the region must be verified to no less than an equivalent
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">>
</span>standard as resources used within the ARIN region."<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">This sounds OK to me, and I suspect David would not have a problem with it but let him speak for himself.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Sweeting, John <<a href="mailto:john.sweeting@twcable.com" target="_blank">john.sweeting@twcable.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Good morning PPML,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Please provide comments in support or opposition as the plan is to vote to move this to Recommended Draft Status for the Baltimore meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">On 7/25/14, 2:29 AM, "Milton L Mueller" <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">At the Chicago meeting there was support for this policy but also calls for simplifying and shortening it. This is the revised version.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Draft Policy ARIN-2014-1<br>
Out of Region Use<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Date: 21 July 2014<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Problem statement:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Current policy neither clearly forbids nor clearly permits out of region use of ARIN registered resources. This has created confusion and controversy within
the ARIN community for some time. Earlier work on this issue has restricting out of region use in various ways. None of these proposals have gained consensus. The next logical option is to discuss a proposal that clearly permits out of region use. Permitting
out of region use, however, poses issues that have to be addressed by policy and adjustments to operational practice. Out of region use must be clearly defined and any operational practices based on that definition must not be unnecessarily burdensome. Also,
it is more difficult and costly for ARIN staff to independently verify the justification and utilization of resources that are used outside of the ARIN service region. There needs to be recognition of this difference in policy and associated operational practices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Policy statement:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black">Create new Section X;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">X. Out of region use</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">ARIN registered resources may be used outside the ARIN service region and such use is valid justification for new or additional resources. A resource is considered to be used outside the region if it exclusively serves a user, customer
or technical infrastructure location outside the ARIN service region.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black">The services and facilities used to justify the need for ARIN resources that will be used out of region should not also be used to justify resource requests from another RIR. When a request for resources from ARIN is justified by
need located within another RIR’s service region and is more than the equivalent of a /20 for IPv4, a /36 for IPv6, or two (2) ASNs, the requesting organization will also report to ARIN the utilization status of all resources of the same type held with any
other RIR that are used or are available for use within the requested service region. The organization will also supply any additional supporting documentation requested by ARIN regarding the need for the reported resources. The report must demonstrate that
all resources currently available for use within the requested service region are efficiently utilized based on applicable ARIN policy.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray">This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging
to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken
in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any
printout.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
<a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:#555555"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:#555555">_______________________________________________________</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Jason Schiller|NetOps|<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank">jschiller@google.com</a>|571-266-0006</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>