<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>Hi Bill,</font></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>We consider ARIN policy to be at fault and are seeking community consensus to change that policy, Do you have a problem with that approach?</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font><br></font></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>----Of course you do and did I not grant in my post that this back and forth WAS the policy development process engaged? I have supported that process for many years and believe it IS the way things must be done. And, I understand that you are seeking community consensus in that discussion....I just note that there seems to be little support to change the policy in the ARIN region. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span> </div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">I know that what this back and forth is about....policy discussion and development....to see whether the community has had a see change...but what I see is that a few people who want it their way...continue to flame the status quo for maintaining its focus...to my mind...where it still should be. Scare resource? Given them to people who NEED them. If the community should be outrage about something, it should be those who contribute to the weakness of he database, not those who's stewardship has not failed.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">bd</span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>Bill, nobody is *giving* addresses to anybody, regardless of their NEEDS, so you can disabuse yourself of that pie-eyed notion. And what is flaming the status quo? Way to encourage participation. I suppose it’s better to leave the community in their repose of silent focus.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font><br></font></span></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>--- you are correct, nobody gives addresses away. Needs-based allocation or transfer, I submit is likely to cost those receiving addresses less overall. Still, there is a financial burden either way. 'Repose of silent focus'. I daresay that the community has been quite vocal in their creation and support of the status quo. And as far as participation goes, I only wish that every constituent with the ARIN community would come out and have their say..one time...about this issue whichever way they choose. See, I'm for consensus either way because I do believe in the process.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font></font></span> </div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>Let’s cut out the stewardship failed nonsense, you are accusing both RIPE and APNIC communities of failed stewardship because their opinion doesn’t match your personal one.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font><br></font></span></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><font>--- </font></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">notice that my comment was not about 'failed stewardship', but the lack thereof on ARIN's part....</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">my belief that needs-based allocations are proper stewardship for ARIN in no way disparages the RIPE and APNIC communities for their policies. There are 5 RIRs so that the local community can decide for themselves what policies should exist in their respective communities. So please don't attribute those accusations to me. As I said above, I have my opinion, but it is the consensus of the community that counts. I'd hope that everyone feels the same.</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">bd</span></div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Mike Burns <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div><font face="Arial"></font></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">"Use of the
registry database for policy enforcement is not supportive of the primary reason
for the existence of the registry system (there is a reason it's called a
"registry"). It is also self-defeating. Get enough folks doing
"transfers" outside of registry database and the database is no longer
meaningful."</span><br></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">Yup, I
suppose....and I guess it's no fault blaming those individuals who do not heed
the community's standards by going outside of policy....no, let's consider ARIN
to be at fault for responding to community consensus. </span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"></span> </div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font>Hi Bill,</font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font>We consider ARIN policy to be at fault and are seeking community
consensus to change that policy, Do you have a problem with that
approach?</font></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"></span> </div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">I know that
what this back and forth is about....policy discussion and development....to see
whether the community has had a see change...but what I see is that a few people
who want it their way...continue to flame the status quo for maintaining its
focus...to my mind...where it still should be. Scare resource? Given them
to people who NEED them. If the community should be outrage about something, it
should be those who contribute to the weakness of he database, not those who's
stewardship has not failed.</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">bd</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font>Bill, nobody is *giving* addresses to anybody, regardless of their NEEDS,
so you can disabuse yourself of that pie-eyed notion. And what is flaming the
status quo? Way to encourage participation. I suppose it’s better to leave the
community in their repose of silent focus. </font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font>Let’s cut out the stewardship failed nonsense, you are accusing both RIPE
and APNIC communities of failed stewardship because their opinion doesn’t match
your personal one.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Regards,</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font size="3" face="Calibri">Mike</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 6:50 AM, David Conrad <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:drc@virtualized.org" target="_blank">drc@virtualized.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">Gary and Bill,
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>On Jun 12, 2014, at 6:37 AM, Bill Darte <<a href="mailto:billdarte@gmail.com" target="_blank">billdarte@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">Gary
said...</span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">
<div></div></span>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">
<div>"need" is not the same as "want" (see the</div></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">$10K red button app
that was offered for</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">awhile; can anyone
explain why anyone</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">would "need"
it). And while some may</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">exchange money for
only "want"s, those</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">that can
demonstrate "need" can get those</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">transfers approved
today and have the</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">registry updated
today. Only the "wants"</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">are having a hard
time. And, in my opinion,</span><br style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px;FONT-FAMILY:arial,sans-serif">that is as it
should be.</span></blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>big +1</div></div></blockquote><br></div>
<div>While I consider the angst associated with speculators (or whoever)
buying up all the address space overblown (hint: it would merely shorten the
already short time horizon of when IPv4 addresses are no longer practically
available), the issue I'm most concerned with is "and have the registry
updated today."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do not believe given sufficient "want" and money that the lack of
updating the registry would sufficient deterrent to preclude a "transfer" from
occurring. The end result being that the address space is no longer
traceable after the transfer.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Use of the registry database for policy enforcement is not supportive of
the primary reason for the existence of the registry system (there is a reason
it's called a "registry"). It is also self-defeating. Get enough
folks doing "transfers" outside of registry database and the database is no
longer meaningful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would have no issue with using other tools at ARIN's disposal for
policy enforcement, e.g., removing reverse delegations, marking entries in the
database as "out of policy" and letting ISPs decide for themselves whether to
accept a prefix for routing, invoking contractual penalties, etc. </div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>-drc</div>
<div> </div></div></blockquote></div>
<div> </div></div>
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