<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Please put a number on "so many" and provide documentation to support that number.<div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><div style=""><div>On Jun 10, 2014, at 14:43 , Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Yes some blocks have been returned and that is a good thing. My question for your first point then is why are so many transfers (in this region) of resources happening outside of ARIN and the “Transfers to Specified Recipients” policy (or other applicable ARIN policies)? After all I think we would get a near unanimous consensus that when the database doesn’t get updated after a transfer it is a negative thing? So it is not desirable for transfers to take place outside of ARIN but it keeps happening anyway. Why?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'MS Mincho'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image001.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'MS Mincho'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">℠</span><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 0.5in;"><sup><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">℠</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>McTim [<a href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com">mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:24 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Steven Ryerse<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu">elvis@velea.eu</a>; <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 3:47 PM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Yes I agree it should have happened years ago and I agree that an outside marketplace already exists, but it isn't too late for ARIN to engage and embrace the new marketplace.<o:p></o:p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">They have embraced it, fully:<br><br><a href="https://arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_3.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_3.html</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br> <o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> I certainly do understand why those large Legacy holders would just watch and wait to see what happened in the marketplace once all of the RIRs run out of resources. It is in their interest to do so.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">but there have been cases of good net-citizenship where entities have returned large blocks (even entire /8's) in recent years.<br><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Cheers,<br><br>McTim<br>"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br> <o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>Steven Ryerse<br>President<br>100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<br><a href="tel:770.656.1460" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">770.656.1460</a> - Cell<br><a href="tel:770.399.9099" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">770.399.9099</a>- Office<br><br><span style="font-family: 'MS Mincho';">℠</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Eclipse Networks, Inc.<br> Conquering Complex Networks<span style="font-family: 'MS Mincho';">℠</span><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Elvis Velea<br>Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:40 PM<br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On 10/06/14 22:15,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lar@mwtcorp.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">lar@mwtcorp.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 20:11:15 +0000<br>> Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> Get used to it because even if this Community doesn’t relent and ease<br>>> up on needs requirements, the marketplace will take up the slack<br>>> outside of ARIN - and a 2nd (or more) defacto marketplace will be<br>>> created. It is inevitable and short of a law being past you and I<br>>> can’t stop it. As you probably know this is already happening with<br>>> the IP brokers out there and I could easily see another RIR who is<br>>> out of resources joining up with significant 3rd party brokers to<br>>> fill IPv4 needs at market prices worldwide. There is another supply<br>>> of IPv4 resources out there in the form of all those Legacy /8’s that<br>>> were given out many years ago, and I suspect that demand will bring<br>>> some of those resources to market. That supply could defer switching<br>>> to IPv6 for years and not everyone likes IPv6.<br>>><br>><br>> Then maybe the discussion we should be having is how to reclaim<br>> un-needed IPV4 space.<br><br>this discussion should have happened 10 years ago. Now, it's too late.<br><br>Everyone knows that IP addresses are worth a buck or two.. The marketplace exists and at least 3 RIRs acknowledge it and their communities have built policies for it. Would you give them up if you would be having a (large) number of unused IPs; IPs that may bring your organization the money needed to invest in new equipment and skills and migrate to IPv6 :)<br><br>cheers,<br>elvis<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">info@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.<br>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">info@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.</div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>