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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Get used to it because even if this Community doesn’t relent and ease up on needs requirements, the marketplace will take up the slack outside of ARIN - and
a 2<sup>nd</sup> (or more) defacto marketplace will be created. It is inevitable and short of a law being past you and I can’t stop it. As you probably know this is already happening with the IP brokers out there and I could easily see another RIR who is
out of resources joining up with significant 3<sup>rd</sup> party brokers to fill IPv4 needs at market prices worldwide. There is another supply of IPv4 resources out there in the form of all those Legacy /8’s that were given out many years ago, and I suspect
that demand will bring some of those resources to market. That supply could defer switching to IPv6 for years and not everyone likes IPv6.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I just don’t understand why ARIN & Community would sit pat when their allocation will be gone in a year or two and life will change around them. Seems prudent
for ARIN & Community to join the fray instead of digging in against it. Loosening up needs testing on just a /24 is so far from joining the fray it is hard for me to see why someone as knowledgeable as you doesn’t want to see the forest from the trees.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="56" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF84C4.C24E94E0" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> McTim [mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Owen DeLong; Matthew Kaufman; arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If I understood your comment below, you are now agreeable to remove SOME of the needs tests on only
a /24. I suppose that is a change but not much of one at all and it will only help the smallest of the needs out there MAYBE if they can pass whatever your relaxed needs test would be. Yes maybe that is a slight shift in your position but pretty negligible</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">it's a huge paradigm shift for me.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">and NOT IMHO what is really needed.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">it is not at all what is needed for your org, certainly.<br>
<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If this was 10 or 15 years ago and I was in a position to block an allocation request of yours for
say a /22 that you really needed, I doubt you would be very happy if I told you that you could only have a /24 and then only if you could pass some arbitrary test that I came up with. In the real world folks need real allocations and current policy stands
in the way. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">If it was 10-15 years ago and I NEEDED it, I could have shown that easily and gotten my /whatever.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">10-15 years ago i was a RIR hostmaster. The bar is NOT very high to show need, it certainly wasn't then, and I don't think it has gone up!<br>
<br>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:770.656.1460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:770.399.9099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a>- Office</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="56" height="37" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF84C4.C24E94E0" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in">
<sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> McTim [mailto:<a href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com" target="_blank">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:30 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Owen DeLong; Matthew Kaufman; <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">
arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Is is indeed a significant shift in my position.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think that is something you should recognise.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'm all for giving small orgs the space they need, which seems to be what you want. However, ido not believe that this policyt does that for you, or indeed for anyone in a way that is
cheaper than getting the space from the RIR.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Wow! A whole /24 – that’s pretty generous of you! What a large compromise that is . . . .</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">President</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:770.656.1460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="tel:770.399.9099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a>- Office</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="56" height="37" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF84C4.C24E94E0" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:.5in">
<sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> McTim [mailto:<a href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com" target="_blank">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Owen DeLong; Matthew Kaufman; <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">
arin-ppml@arin.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Steven,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There are several folks (like me) who want to ditch the needs test and there are several folks who don't want to ditch them. I take it your position is that the folks who want
to keep needs tests should somehow prevail in this argument without much or any change, and those of us who wish to ditch them should just accept the status quo with needs tests. In other words you win and we lose!<br>
<br>
I saw a lot of folks comment here recently who want to at least loosen needs tests on the smaller block sizes, many many more than I've ever seen before. Since it is obvious a sizable portion of this community desires a change toward loosening policies, why
is it that you persist in standing in the way of compromise?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">As for me, I think relaxing (not eliminating needs assessment at a /24 boundary is plenty of compromise.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">See Andrew Dul's most recent mail for possible scenario's.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">--
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
<br>
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There comes a time when fair is fair - and small organizations are routinely discriminated against because of our small size and not so deep pockets. There is a lot of anger out there over the unfairness of these existing policies. It should be just as easy
for us to get resources as it was for T-Mobile and others. I call on all members of this community to at least come to a compromise. After all the world hasn't ended for RIPE with their changes - and it won't end here either if fairness is put back into
the policies so that small organizations can get the resources they need too!<o:p></o:p></p>
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Steven Ryerse<br>
President<br>
100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<br>
<a href="http://www.eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">www.eclipse-networks.com</a><br>
<a href="tel:770.656.1460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell<br>
<a href="tel:770.399.9099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a>- Office<br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">℠</span> Eclipse Networks, Inc.<br>
Conquering Complex Networks<span style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">℠</span><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">From:
<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 7:25 PM<br>
To: Matthew Kaufman<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers<br>
<br>
><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">> Matthew Kaufman<br>
><br>
> ps. I'd also note that "policy that expresses the general intent of the community" may in fact *be* policy that lets post-runout transfers be performed without a needs test, as "the community" consists of a lot more than "Owen”.<br>
<br>
Indeed, it does. However, many people have also repeatedly stood up in defense of needs basis, so singling me out as if I am the lone supporter of preserving needs basis is as specious as many of your other arguments.<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p>
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-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
<o:p></o:p></p>
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