<div dir="ltr">I was asking wrt "all of the above".<div><br></div><div>So yes, with respect to pre-ARIN IPv4 depletion, post-ARIN IPv4 depletion, free pool IPv4 address space, IPv4 transfers, IPv6 free pool.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I think what Michael was getting at is can we simply express our views on the simple binary question. I think you correctly point out it is not a simple binary question.</div><div><br></div><div>I was attempting to rephrase the question and keep it simple and get at the essence of the thing people keep arguing about, and come up with a laundry list of the types of answers (A-F). </div>
<div><br></div><div>Answer A and E are essentially the same pre-ARIN depletion, but diverge post-ARIN depletion.</div><div><br></div><div>In my mind, if one believes needs based is fair for ARIN allocations / assignments, but is not fair for transfers because simple market factors are more fair (even per-ARIN depletion) then this fell into the category F "<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">No, there is a better mechanism that is "more fair" we should switch to that immediately."</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Maybe that is limited thinking on my part. I have inserted a bucket J between E and F (because I think that is where it falls in the spectrum).</span></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">A. Yes, keep measuring justified need as we always have.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">B. Yes, keep measuring justified need as we always have until something better comes along.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">C. Yes, I'm not sure this is the most fair, but it has been the rules of the game, and doesn't seem right to change the rules so close to the finish line (especially when people's IPv6 adoption plans are depending on it). </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">D. Yes, but there is a specific problem that results in some class being treated unfairly, so a tweak or two is required.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">E. Yes, but a needs test only makes sense when addresses can be acquired unrestricted or with flat or tiered pricing or even per low priced IP address pricing. In a limited market, price is the most efficient and most fair mechanism. </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">J. Yes, keep measuring justified need as we always have for ARIN allocations and assignments because this is the most fair mechanism when there are no market factors in place, but use only market factors for transfer as this is more fair (but sadly can only work for transfers).</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">F. No, there is a better mechanism that is "more fair" we should switch to that immediately.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">G. Its not justified need isn't fair, but rather the fact that there are a class of users whose justified need will not be fulfilled, such as individuals (not an organization) or organizations that need only a small amount of addressing (less than a /24 which is the arbitrary limit for inetr-AS routing to keep tables small).</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">H. Unrelated... while the current needs based justification is fair, the process is difficult and the end result favors large organizations, those who are growing rapidly (and thus repeated ask for space), those with a dedicated IP management team, those with a dedicated legal team... The process (not the policy) is unfair.</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>My hope was to create a bunch of useful buckets, and see where people stand. </div><div><br></div><div>These are the loose buckets as I see them based on the part of the conversation I have heard and understood.</div>
<div>Certainly I have missed some.</div><div><br></div><div>__Jason</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:41 PM, John Curran <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank">jcurran@arin.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
Jason -
<div> </div>
<div> Are you asking with respect to new issuance from the IPv4 free pool, or </div>
<div> with respect to IPv4 transfers, or both? Some folks might choose a </div>
<div> different answer from your list depending on which one you are referring.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div><div class="">
<div>/John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John Curran</div>
<div>President and CEO</div>
<div>ARIN</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5"><div>
<div>
<div>On Jun 6, 2014, at 2:29 PM, Jason Schiller <<a href="mailto:jschiller@google.com" target="_blank">jschiller@google.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I think the question here is does justified need provide value to the community in creating "fairness"?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A. Yes, keep measuring justified need as we always have.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>B. Yes, keep measuring justified need as we always have until something better comes along.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Yes, I'm not sure this is the most fair, but it has been the rules of the game, and doesn't seem right to change the rules so close to the finish line (especially when people's IPv6 adoption plans are depending on it). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>D. Yes, but there is a specific problem that results in some class being treated unfairly, so a tweak or two is required.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>E. Yes, but a needs test only makes sense when addresses can be acquired unrestricted or with flat or tiered pricing or even per low priced IP address pricing. In a limited market, price is the most efficient and most fair mechanism. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>F. No, there is a better mechanism that is "more fair" we should switch to that immediately.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>G. Its not justified need isn't fair, but rather the fact that there are a class of users whose justified need will not be fulfilled, such as individuals (not an organization) or organizations that need only a small amount of addressing (less than a /24
which is the arbitrary limit for inetr-AS routing to keep tables small).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>H. Unrelated... while the current needs based justification is fair, the process is difficult and the end result favors large organizations, those who are growing rapidly (and thus repeated ask for space), those with a dedicated IP management team, those
with a dedicated legal team... The process (not the policy) is unfair.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>__Jason</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:40 PM, John Von Stein <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:John@qxccommunications.com" target="_blank">John@qxccommunications.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p>My 2-cents on this thread …<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Having been in the commodity/derivative/equity trading businesses for 25 years before starting an ISP I concur that a Market will likely evolve for US IPv4. The fundamentals of Supply and Demand for IPv4 will prevail. It’s probably happening already, akin
to the “dark pools” of off-exchange trading that were siphoning large amounts of trading volume away from the regulated equity exchanges. This community, including ARIN, can either embrace and guide this tectonic shift from single source of IP (ARIN) to a
Market of IP address suppliers / consumers from the playing field or else be left with absolute control over essentially an empty bag of allocations and watching the aftermarket activity from the sideline.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Thank you,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">John W. Von Stein<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><img width="122" height="78" alt="cid:sigimg0@791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF818C.1783EC80"></span><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1f497d">102 NE 2<sup>nd</sup> Street<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="color:#1f497d">Suite 136<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Steven Ryerse<br>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 1:26 PM<br>
To: Michael Peddemors; <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Simple question to simplify the rhetoric..<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Of course those are not the only two options. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>We could choose C: Open up the market by removing needs testing along the lines of what RIPE is doing and let the market work that out.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>We could also D: Embrace and join the private market that has sprung up outside of ARIN and legitimize it and work closely with it at the policy level. (This has the added benefit of improving the accuracy of the Database.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>There are probably other options. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Steven Ryerse<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>President<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="tel:770.656.1460" value="+17706561460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="tel:770.399.9099" value="+17703999099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a>- Office<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p> Conquering Complex Networks℠<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>-----Original Message-----<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>From: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a> [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>]
On Behalf Of Michael Peddemors<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 11:33 AM<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Simple question to simplify the rhetoric..<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>On 14-06-06 08:21 AM, John Curran wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>> On Jun 6, 2014, at 10:50 AM, Michael Peddemors <<a href="mailto:michael@linuxmagic.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">michael@linuxmagic.com</span></a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>>> Why don't we first of all all express our simple votes..<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>>><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>>> A) Leave the current system alone, and let the free market work it <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>>> out<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>>> B) Enpower ARIN with more abilities to 'judge' who gets the remaining <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>>> space<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>> Michael -<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>> In particular, there are the requirements for receiving space from the regional<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>> free pool versus requirements for being a recipient of a market transfer.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Understood of course, however I believe a consensus or even a productive conversation in either case can't be had, unless the community first agrees in principle to a fundamental change in ARIN's role, where it is transfer's or allocation of new IP(s).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>--<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>"Catch the Magic of Linux..."<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Visit us at <a href="http://www.linuxmagic.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://www.linuxmagic.com</span></a> @linuxmagic<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>A Wizard IT Company - For More Info <a href="http://www.wizard.ca/" target="_blank">
<span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://www.wizard.ca</span></a> "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>------------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="tel:604-682-0300" value="+16046820300" target="_blank">604-682-0300</a> Beautiful British Columbia, Canada<u></u><u></u></p>
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