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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My question is what happens when BigRedISP that does 99% of its’ business with a densely used /12 of space hosted primarily in Barsoom wants to open a pop with a legitimately justified /21 of space in a NOC in Chicago. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Isn’t the ‘right’ thing for them to do by the intent of what we are talking about to get a /21 (or whatever the current minimum is) of space from ARIN for this particular use point? It seems that the ‘plurality’ or ‘significant percentage’ rules would proscribe that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Once they do get a block and the Chicago enterprise goes belly up and closes how do we make sure BigRedISP doesn’t take their ARIN /21 back to Barsoom to use in Manator?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kevin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>{My apologies to them if there really is a BigRedISP}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Matthew Petach<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 18, 2013 2:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> David Farmer<br><b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2013-6: Allocation of IPv4 and IPv6 Address Space to Out-of-region Requestors - Revised Problem Statement and Policy Text<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 11:45 AM, David Farmer <<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">farmer@umn.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I'm going to break this up into separate sub threads.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br>On 9/17/13 10:20 , Matthew Petach wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 3:59 PM, David Farmer <<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">farmer@umn.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><mailto:<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">farmer@umn.edu</a>>> wrote:<br><br> On 9/14/13 22:58 , Matthew Petach wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>...<o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> change<br><br> " a plurality of resources requested from ARIN must be justified by technical<br> infrastructure and customers located within the ARIN service region, and any located<br> outside the region must be interconnected to the ARIN service region."<br><br> to<br><br> " a significant fraction of the resources requested from ARIN<br> must be justified by technical infrastructure or customers located<br> within the ARIN service region, and any located outside the region must be<br> interconnected to the ARIN service region."<br><br><br> If we don't like plurality for whatever reason, I'd suggest;<br><br> "a minimum of X% of the resources requested from ARIN must be<br> justified by technical infrastructure or customers located within<br> the ARIN service region, and any located outside the region must be<br> interconnected to the ARIN service region."<br><br> Where X% is something like 20%, 25%, or 30%.<br><br><br>So, how about something like this, then?<br><br>"a minimum of 20% of the *new* resources requested from ARIN must be<br>justified by technical infrastructure or customers physically located within<br>the borders of ARIN member countries, and any technical infrastructure<br>or customers located outside the ARIN region must be physically<br>interconnected to the ARIN service region"<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>I will modify the current language adding "new" making it "a plurality of new resources requested" before the text freeze, I think that clarifies the current intent. Are there any objections to the "new resources requested" language?<br><br>However, I'd like to hear more comments in support of a flat 20% standard before I'm willing to make that change, as I think that significantly changes the intent, at least in the view of some. As an Individual I'd support a flat 20% standard. But as the primary shepherd for the proposal, I'm a little worried we would loose as much or more support than we would gain with that change. So, I need a better read on what the community as a whole thinks of a flat 20% standard before making that change. No matter what, I will include that in the questions I take to the floor of the PPM.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The concern I have with "plurality" is that that I may not know<br>with certainty that a new request will meet that definition; I may<br>intend for it to be split 50/40/10 between ARIN/RIPE/LACNIC<br>regions; but then upon deployment, discover that the LACNIC<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>backbone nodes required more space than expected, as did<br>RIPE, and my split ends up being 40/45/15. Now it's no longer<br>a plurality of space in the ARIN region. It's easier to plan to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>hit a target percentage than try to hit a multi-way ratio given<br>the unpredictable and changeable forces that impact real<br>world rollouts.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><br>As for some of the other additions I'm not sure "physically located within the borders of ARIN member countries" add much verses "located within the ARIN service region", or "physically interconnected" vs. "interconnected". In your opinion what do these changes add?<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>(warning--philosophical weeds ahead; feel free to<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>ignore anything beyond this point as completely<br>pointless to the actual topic being discussed)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I always wonder what "the ARIN service region" actually<br>entails. I know what country borders are; what do we make<br>of places like offshore oil platforms (sealand?)--is it covered<br>by the service region, even if it's not one of the member<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>countries? If a business address is listed in the ARIN<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>'region', but not within the borders of any member country,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>does it help the LEA desire prompting this policy?<br>I realize I'm splitting hairs, so feel free to ignore this<br>philosophical ramble; under ordinary circumstances,<br>language like "located within the ARIN region" is good<br>enough for us, because we're not concerned with political<br>boundaries and law enforcement jurisdictions. I just realized<br>that if the intent is to provide an address so that a particular<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>LEA can track down wrongdoers, what do we do about the<br>portions of the ARIN service region that aren't associated<br>with a specific country? Or is the ARIN service region<br>strictly bound by the borders of the countries involved,<br>and anything outside of that belongs to a different RIR,<br>or does it float up to the IANA level? Which service<br>region does the IP address pool on a jet airliner flying<br>over the atlantic ocean belong to? Does the entity<br>making use of the addresses go out of compliance<br>if all the aircraft using the IPs leave the ARIN region<br>at the same time?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Likewise, does the aircraft's network still count as<br>being "interconnected" to the ARIN region, even<br>with no physical network layer involved? If that<br>counts, is it any different from a network that<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>runs a VPN link from outside the ARIN region<br>to a device inside the ARIN region, for the<br>purposes of claiming the networks are<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"interconnected". For that matter, as long as<br>the different network elements connect in<br>some fashion to "the Internet", doesn't that<br>satisfy the "interconnected" clause, in which<br>case, does having it in actually add anything<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>to the policy above simply saying "the number<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>resources requested must be used on the<br>Internet somewhere"?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>OK. Enough late-night philosophizing. Back to<br>doing some real work. ^_^;<br><br>Matt<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br>Thanks<br><br>-- <br>================================================<br>David Farmer Email: <a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">farmer@umn.edu</a><br>Office of Information Technology<br>University of Minnesota<br>2218 University Ave SE Phone: <a href="tel:1-612-626-0815" target="_blank">1-612-626-0815</a><br>Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: <a href="tel:1-612-812-9952" target="_blank">1-612-812-9952</a><br>================================================<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>