<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">In most cases, probably not a successful case.<div><br></div><div>However, IANAL, and I am speaking only for myself. This is not an official position of ARIN, the AC, or anyone besides me, myself, and I.</div><div><br></div><div>However, this has wandered far afield from policy relevance and as such, I'd like to focus on the merits or lack thereof for a private reassignment policy.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 15, 2012, at 13:33 , "Chu, Yi [NTK]" <<a href="mailto:Yi.Chu@sprint.com">Yi.Chu@sprint.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="WordSection1"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">So ISP A made a reassignment, and created the org ID on behalf of its customer (company B). At that time, the business location and POC were correct in the swipped records. A year later, company B changed its business location, or its POC switched job. However, B did not notify ISP A of the change. Now some third party C has some DDOS traffic coming from the company B. C is checking on WHOIS and found the contact info for B outdated. Is this ground for C to make a legal case against ISP A?</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">yi</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>McTim [mailto:dogwallah@<a href="http://gmail.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:20 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Chu, Yi [NTK]<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment - ISP liability</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi,</p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Chu, Yi [NTK] <<a href="mailto:Yi.Chu@sprint.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">Yi.Chu@sprint.com</a>> wrote:</div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Can ARIN staff answer the question whether ISP have legal liability</span></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Perhaps if you could be more specific about what type of liability you mean?</div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>-- <br>Cheers,<br><br>McTim<br>"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel</div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in; "><div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">for the reassignment they made on their downstream customers’ behalf?</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">yi</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Chu, Yi [NTK]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:13 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Aaron Dudek<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment</span></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Aaron:</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Not necessarily true. Customer can move their mailing address without telling their upstream ISP. They can just forget it. Their accounts receiving department may or may not be the same as their ‘authoritative’ contact info that ISP put in the whois for them.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Let alone the POC records. It actually took quite a while for my company to update some folks after they switched jobs. (you know whom I am referring to). I know that for a fact. And as for my customers, I do not recall last time anyone told me that their POC changed, but I suspect a lot of them did.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">So I am a bit uneasy as the discussion seemed to implicate that I am legally liable in some ways. I need to find out, and if so, need to get my acts together. It is a bit off topic, so I apologize.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">yi</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Aaron Dudek [mailto:<a href="mailto:adudek16@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">adudek16@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:57 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Chu, Yi [NTK]<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Jimmy Hess; Owen DeLong;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; ">Well, you bill the customer, so if the customer moves without telling you, you can figure out how that works.<br>POCs change all the time. I'm sure that you know how to update and correct that when it is found out. Either someone will contact your company and say something or they will contact you when they are no longer able to reach certain sites.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Aaron</span></p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Chu, Yi [NTK] <<a href="mailto:Yi.Chu@sprint.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">Yi.Chu@sprint.com</a>> wrote:</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">So ISP creates swip and POC records on behalf of its customers. Does that put ISP in a legal binding that in case customer moves, or customer's POC changes job without telling the ISP, that ISP has any legal implication for not knowing?<br><br>yi<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Jimmy Hess<br>Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 10:20 PM<br>To: Owen DeLong<br>Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment<br><br>On 8/9/12, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br>[snip]<br>> some legitimate contact address for the customer in question. Ideally<br>> the one where they would prefer to receive service of legal process.<br><br>I think many organizations would prefer to not receive service of<br>legal process at any address.<br><br>The org address listed in WHOIS should be a mailing address that is an<br>authoritative contact for both the organization and the network.<br>Example uses of a mailing address could include:<br><br>(*) Verification of of identity on the part of upstreams and<br>prospective peers, by proof of ability to receive mail, or comparison<br>to other records.<br><br>(*) Contact by letter sent via postal mail or private courier as a<br>last resort, for reporting technical or abuse issues, that for some<br>reason the e-mail based or telephone contact was not responsive for,<br>for example, the telephone may be malfunctioning, or disconnected,<br>and someone forgot to update WHOIS.<br><br>(*) Reporting of network abuse issues, by going there in person to<br>report face-to-face or via courier/postal mail, where the technical<br>contact was believed to be complicit in the abuse for some reason.<br><br>(*) Reporting of possible hacker compromises impacting the mail<br>server that the technical contact's mail is hosting on, or when<br>e-mail is otherwise returned as undeliverable or not acknowledged.<br><br><br>> Owen<br>--<br>-JH<br>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">info@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.<br><br><br>________________________________<br><br>This e-mail may contain Sprint Nextel proprietary information intended for the sole use of the recipient(s). 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If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message.</span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">info@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.</div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br clear="all"></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> </p></div></div><br><hr><font face="Arial" color="Gray" size="1"><br>This e-mail may contain Sprint Nextel proprietary information intended for the sole use of the recipient(s). 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