<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Trebuchet MS";
panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks for your response! I am merely trying to point out with a graphic example of how consensus is not always right. Consensus is frequently used for justification
in this community and somebody has to burst that bubble and substitute for it that doing the right thing is more important than doing the consensus thing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven L Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.399.9099 - Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">770.392-0076 - Fax<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img width="56" height="37" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD7646.6AFD0ED0" alt="Description: Description: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">℠</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Aaron Dudek [mailto:adudek16@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 09, 2012 3:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steven Ryerse<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Seth Mattinen; arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] IP Address Policy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Steven Ryerse <<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">With all due respect bad policies need to be changed. Policy isn't policy as you say when it is bad policy. Consensus isn't good when it is wrong. ARIN does actually have an obligation to me and to you and to Microsoft and to every other
member of the Internet community in North America. Their charter is to serve ALL of us and not just SOME of us. All of us should be on the same level playing field. The BGP policy is specifically designed to deny Internet resources based on the size of
the requesting organization. This is absolutely wrong and it is bad policy!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Just because you do not understand how to do things you feel that the policy is bad. There is no size requirement to run BGP. You need to show that you actually need it based on growth. There was a time when /24s were filtered out. Actually anything smaller
then what was in the initial allocation. This policy was created and approved by the members of ARIN. Including those who have been in the same boat as you. They got it done. There is no entitlement here just because you want it.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Arin's mission statement says: "Applying the principles of stewardship, ARIN, a nonprofit corporation, allocates Internet Protocol resources; develops consensus-based policies; and facilitates the advancement of the Internet through information and educational
outreach."<br>
<br>
This specifically says that one of ARIN's main missions is to Allocate resources. It absolutely does not say that ARIN is supposed to find reasons and ways to deny resources. It should be finding reasons and ways to approve allocation of resources to everyone
who needs them. To do anything other than allocating resources to organizations who can demonstrate the need for those resources is the exact opposite of ARINs mission. Each policy should first have to pass the test of: Does this policy completely align
with ARINs mission - and does it advance Internet usage? Any policies that fail this test need to be redone or be removed or not approved - regardless of how well written it might be.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You are more then welcome to start that process.<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I'm sorry that I appear to be ruffling the feathers of some members of the this community but I will keep on saying that in this forum over and over again until some reason prevails that this is wrong and it needs to be fixed. I am part of this community too.<br>
<br>
I would also categorically state that ruling by consensus can be dangerous and frequently does NOT result in good policies. If all of the polices that have been approved to date by consensus are so perfect then why do existing policies have to frequently be
modified and fixed? I will give you a very graphic illustration of how consensus can be used for very bad policies. In the United States there used to be a very strong consensus in the southern states that black men and women should be enslaved. The vast
majority of southerners had come to a strong consensus that the "policy" of slavery was good for the south and that the "policy" of slavery was good for the economy and that black men and women were only capable of being good slaves. This consensus was so
strong that southerners were willing to die to keep the "policy" of slavery in place. There was a small minority in the south who stood up and said slavery was wrong. They were not part of the consensus and of course we all realize today that the "policy"
created by the consensus of the majority that slavery was good was very WRONG - and this small minority was RIGHT. Consensuses have led to big trouble in Communist Russia and Nazi Germany and many other examples. Thank goodness we are not discussing issues
of this magnitude in this community and of course I use these extreme examples to illustrate that governing solely by consensus is not always smart. The beauty and the power of this Internet Community forum is NOT consensus - but IS the ability of the Internet
Community to have input into what ARIN does. That is very positive and the obvious reason why the mission statement seeks to give the Internet Community input to its actions. If the consensus of this community is contrary to ARINs mission then it should
always be denied by ARINs board - every time. That is their fiduciary responsibility!<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is uncalled for. <br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Many of the responses I have received so far want to debate a particular point of policy or a fine point of my augments but they don't really address my overlying point. While that kind of dialog is positive,
it misses the overlying point I am trying to make that ALL policies need to be FULLY aligned with ARINs mission. Until we come to agreement that ARIN needs to fully pursue its chartered mission to serve EVERONE who can demonstrate need - at a mission statement
level, arguing the various points of a policy at a low level won't help solve the overlying problem. I am asking for the help of ARIN & this Community to correct the overlying problem first. I hope you will join me!<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Your are not doing a lot to win people over in your current attempt. Everyone doesn't get address space from ARIN. Those that do have shown valid justification. That is the reality of the situation.
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Steven L Ryerse<br>
President<br>
100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<br>
770.656.1460 - Cell<br>
770.399.9099 - Office<br>
770.392-0076 - Fax<br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">℠</span> Eclipse Networks, Inc.<br>
Conquering Complex Networks<span style="font-family:"MS Mincho"">℠</span><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:45 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] IP Address Policy<br>
<br>
On 8/8/12 8:50 PM, Steven Ryerse wrote:<br>
> You can mince words but unless you can tell me what other organization<br>
> I can go to get vendor independent IP addresses assigned for North<br>
> America then ARIN is indeed a monopoly. The phone analogy portion<br>
> that applies to this discussion is the monopoly portion of my<br>
> comments. The phone company has a monopoly and ARIN has a monopoly.<br>
> Because of this they have certain obligations. Since ARIN sometimes<br>
> decides to not share everything they do with this community, like the<br>
> Microsoft/Nortel agreement they chose not to share with us, then<br>
> obviously they do have the authority to make decisions without the<br>
> approval of this community - as they should as an independent<br>
> corporation. I applaud their willingness to listen to the community<br>
> and this is one member of the community who is pointing out a policy<br>
> that is contrary to their mission and they should fix it for all of<br>
> us. Also this community plus a lot of other Internet users in North<br>
> America is essentially the customers of ARI<br>
N. Any o<br>
rganization worth their salt will work with their "customers" to help solve business problems and not let a silly policy get in the way of conducting business. That is what I am asking for here. ARIN has to decide whether they want to help this "customer"
and other like us.<br>
><br>
<br>
ARIN can't help you. They have no obligation to you or anyone. Policy is policy. We, the communicate, made it, not ARIN. ARIN is only doing what we wish them to do through the policy process.<br>
<br>
There is not a "willingness" to listen to the community, rather that's how policies come to be. ARIN nor ARIN staff are allowed to propose policy. So you're barking up the wrong tree going after ARIN. You should be going after the community (everyone on this
list) for making policy the way it is today.<br>
<br>
~Seth<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
<a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
<a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>