Hi B<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Something is always more important than something else. If ARIN's focus is on IPv6 transition then I would suggest that ARIN is not likely to complicate your life nor their own whilst continuing stewardship of that which has come to an end.<br>
Since we are a consensus driven model, the community has a pivotal role in speeding up the transition process or at very least not restricting the push towards IPv6.<br>Brett's suggests that the community will want to send out v4 patrols...but to my way of thinking, why throw resources at slowing down the transition? I don't see how policing run-out in this way can be regarded as positive forward movement.<br>
RD<br><br><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
If your resources are underutilized, ARIN *could* do a section 12 audit<br>
and initiate reclamation. If you don't tell anyone that you are<br>
underutilized, ARIN won't know, so they only way you'd get hit with an<br>
audit is if you got really unlucky. If you tell the world (by putting<br>
them up for auction), the risks get higher, because ARIN knows (or at<br>
least has a strong indication) that you are underutilized.<br>
<br>
ARIN hasn't made a practice of doing that, and I agree with John's<br>
statement that they aren't likely to start doing that. But if they<br>
don't know you are underutilized, your risk is lower than if they do<br>
know and you're relying on them to nevertheless refrain from an audit.<br>
In my view, the risk is very low either way. But it is lower if ARIN<br>
doesn't have the information, and some companies are going to play it<br>
safe.<br>
<br>
-- Brett<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 00:53:02 -0400<br>
From: Thomas Narten <<a href="mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: [arin-ppml] Weekly posting summary for <a href="mailto:ppml@arin.net">ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:201109020453.p824r2PZ006083@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com">201109020453.p824r2PZ006083@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
Total of 95 messages in the last 7 days.<br>
<br>
script run at: Fri Sep 2 00:53:02 EDT 2011<br>
<br>
Messages | Bytes | Who<br>
--------+------+--------+----------+------------------------<br>
18.95% | 18 | 22.11% | 156076 | <a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a><br>
17.89% | 17 | 15.49% | 109349 | <a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net">jcurran@arin.net</a><br>
15.79% | 15 | 16.51% | 116553 | <a href="mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com">mike@nationwideinc.com</a><br>
6.32% | 6 | 4.49% | 31695 | <a href="mailto:matthew@matthew.at">matthew@matthew.at</a><br>
3.16% | 3 | 6.03% | 42591 | <a href="mailto:stephen@sprunk.org">stephen@sprunk.org</a><br>
5.26% | 5 | 3.84% | 27126 | <a href="mailto:sethm@rollernet.us">sethm@rollernet.us</a><br>
4.21% | 4 | 3.93% | 27755 | <a href="mailto:paul@redbarn.org">paul@redbarn.org</a><br>
4.21% | 4 | 3.66% | 25850 | <a href="mailto:cengel@conxeo.com">cengel@conxeo.com</a><br>
3.16% | 3 | 4.28% | 30196 | <a href="mailto:lee@dilkie.com">lee@dilkie.com</a><br>
3.16% | 3 | 2.91% | 20576 | <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us">bill@herrin.us</a><br>
3.16% | 3 | 2.83% | 19977 | <a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mueller@syr.edu</a><br>
3.16% | 3 | 2.43% | 17146 | <a href="mailto:mysidia@gmail.com">mysidia@gmail.com</a><br>
2.11% | 2 | 2.67% | 18824 | <a href="mailto:xing.cernet@gmail.com">xing.cernet@gmail.com</a><br>
2.11% | 2 | 2.07% | 14615 | <a href="mailto:kkargel@polartel.com">kkargel@polartel.com</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 1.47% | 10348 | <a href="mailto:joe@oregon.uoregon.edu">joe@oregon.uoregon.edu</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 1.22% | 8585 | <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 0.88% | 6204 | <a href="mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm.com</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 0.87% | 6122 | <a href="mailto:hannigan@gmail.com">hannigan@gmail.com</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 0.80% | 5680 | <a href="mailto:rbf%2Barin-ppml@panix.com">rbf+arin-ppml@panix.com</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 0.77% | 5434 | <a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a><br>
1.05% | 1 | 0.75% | 5287 | <a href="mailto:gary.buhrmaster@gmail.com">gary.buhrmaster@gmail.com</a><br>
--------+------+--------+----------+------------------------<br>
100.00% | 95 |100.00% | 705989 | Total<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:16:45 -0700<br>
From: Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>><br>
To: Brett Frankenberger <<a href="mailto:rbf%2Barin-ppml@panix.com">rbf+arin-ppml@panix.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] An article of interest to the community....<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5CDA1548-A0EF-453A-B11E-383451099047@delong.com">5CDA1548-A0EF-453A-B11E-383451099047@delong.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sep 1, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Brett Frankenberger wrote:<br>
<br>
> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 06:38:44PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
>> Mike,<br>
>> What risk do you see in listing un/under-utilized resources that is<br>
>> not present in merely holding those resources?<br>
><br>
> Can't say for sure, but I'd guess it's comparable to the risk that<br>
> exists in taking out a full page add in the local newspaper announcing<br>
> "I will drive 80 in the 60 MPH speed zone at milepost X on highway Y at<br>
> XX:XX on XX/XX/2001" that isn't present in driving 80 in a 60 but not<br>
> advertising when and where you will be doing it.<br>
><br>
Except that it would be more like doing that after the chief of police and<br>
the commandant of the highway patrol had told you that making such<br>
an announcement in and of itself would not cause them to pursue you.<br>
<br>
> If your resources are underutilized, ARIN *could* do a section 12 audit<br>
> and initiate reclamation. If you don't tell anyone that you are<br>
> underutilized, ARIN won't know, so they only way you'd get hit with an<br>
> audit is if you got really unlucky. If you tell the world (by putting<br>
> them up for auction), the risks get higher, because ARIN knows (or at<br>
> least has a strong indication) that you are underutilized.<br>
><br>
<br>
In spite of John's claims to the contrary, I actually believe that ARIN should<br>
begin performing random reviews as time permits and should certainly<br>
be looking for resources that appear to have a pattern of un/under-<br>
utilization.<br>
<br>
> ARIN hasn't made a practice of doing that, and I agree with John's<br>
> statement that they aren't likely to start doing that. But if they<br>
> don't know you are underutilized, your risk is lower than if they do<br>
> know and you're relying on them to nevertheless refrain from an audit.<br>
> In my view, the risk is very low either way. But it is lower if ARIN<br>
> doesn't have the information, and some companies are going to play it<br>
> safe.<br>
><br>
<br>
John's statement wasn't that they aren't likely to start doing so. John's<br>
statement was that he did not feel that they should start doing so.<br>
John and I disagree in this area and I think at the end of the day<br>
as scarcity becomes more of an issue, there will be more pressure<br>
from the community to change John's position on this. John answers<br>
to the board. The board answers to the members.<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:31:01 -0700<br>
From: "Michael Wallace" <<a href="mailto:michael@birdhosting.com">michael@birdhosting.com</a>><br>
To: "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>>, "Brett Frankenberger"<br>
<<a href="mailto:rbf%2Barin-ppml@panix.com">rbf+arin-ppml@panix.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] An article of interest to the community....<br>
Message-ID: <2df584b7$652e2471$404ae486$@com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
I'm new over here. Been reading for a couple of weeks.<br>
<br>
<br>
The only issue I see with IP addresses is people not even making an attempt<br>
to use IPv6. We have so many IP addresses in IPv6 that we should never run<br>
out. The only major issue is ISP's are not really dealing with IPv6. I<br>
tried to make a pretty big push to use IPv6 but failed doing so. Only<br>
because I'm getting push back from my upstream providers (Ill leave them<br>
unnamed). This poses a huge problem for all of us as we are mainly trying<br>
to stay afloat. As we get more and more customers, we need more and more<br>
IP's. Well if we simply cannot move to IPv6 because upstream providers,<br>
and customers ISP's are not allowing IPv6.<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe what we all need to do as service providers is push upstream<br>
providers, and ISP's as a hole to start supporting IPv6.<br>
<br>
<br>
Once we get this, We will not have to worry about ethics of scanning IP<br>
allotment space to see if they are not/un utilized.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
<br>
Michael Wallace<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------<br>
<br>
From: "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>><br>
<br>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 10:21 PM<br>
<br>
To: "Brett Frankenberger" <<a href="mailto:rbf%2Barin-ppml@panix.com">rbf+arin-ppml@panix.com</a>><br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] An article of interest to the community....<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sep 1, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Brett Frankenberger wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 06:38:44PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
<br>
>> Mike,<br>
<br>
>> What risk do you see in listing un/under-utilized resources that is<br>
<br>
>> not present in merely holding those resources?<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
> Can't say for sure, but I'd guess it's comparable to the risk that<br>
<br>
> exists in taking out a full page add in the local newspaper announcing<br>
<br>
> "I will drive 80 in the 60 MPH speed zone at milepost X on highway Y at<br>
<br>
> XX:XX on XX/XX/2001" that isn't present in driving 80 in a 60 but not<br>
<br>
> advertising when and where you will be doing it.<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
Except that it would be more like doing that after the chief of police and<br>
<br>
the commandant of the highway patrol had told you that making such<br>
<br>
an announcement in and of itself would not cause them to pursue you.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If your resources are underutilized, ARIN *could* do a section 12 audit<br>
<br>
> and initiate reclamation. If you don't tell anyone that you are<br>
<br>
> underutilized, ARIN won't know, so they only way you'd get hit with an<br>
<br>
> audit is if you got really unlucky. If you tell the world (by putting<br>
<br>
> them up for auction), the risks get higher, because ARIN knows (or at<br>
<br>
> least has a strong indication) that you are underutilized.<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
In spite of John's claims to the contrary, I actually believe that ARIN<br>
should<br>
<br>
begin performing random reviews as time permits and should certainly<br>
<br>
be looking for resources that appear to have a pattern of un/under-<br>
<br>
utilization.<br>
<br>
<br>
> ARIN hasn't made a practice of doing that, and I agree with John's<br>
<br>
> statement that they aren't likely to start doing that. But if they<br>
<br>
> don't know you are underutilized, your risk is lower than if they do<br>
<br>
> know and you're relying on them to nevertheless refrain from an audit.<br>
<br>
> In my view, the risk is very low either way. But it is lower if ARIN<br>
<br>
> doesn't have the information, and some companies are going to play it<br>
<br>
> safe.<br>
<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
John's statement wasn't that they aren't likely to start doing so. John's<br>
<br>
statement was that he did not feel that they should start doing so.<br>
<br>
John and I disagree in this area and I think at the end of the day<br>
<br>
as scarcity becomes more of an issue, there will be more pressure<br>
<br>
from the community to change John's position on this. John answers<br>
<br>
to the board. The board answers to the members.<br>
<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
PPML<br>
<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 08:18:33 +0100<br>
From: Matthew Kaufman <<a href="mailto:matthew@matthew.at">matthew@matthew.at</a>><br>
To: Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] An article of interest to the community....<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4E608349.4080007@matthew.at">4E608349.4080007@matthew.at</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 9/1/11 11:41 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
> However, you are a corner case. A microcosm.<br>
<br>
I'm sorry, but "accessing web sites from browsers and web services from<br>
applications" isn't "a corner case".<br>
<br>
The fact is that almost everyone with an Internet connection at their<br>
home or business would be perfectly happy with ports 80 and 443 working<br>
well and nothing else. Perhaps the occasional random UDP for VoIP (to a<br>
hosted VoIP service that relays all traffic anyway) but even that isn't<br>
strictly necessary if your TCP 80 and 443 are working well. Even the<br>
POP/IMAP and SMTP ports aren't needed any more, as web-based mail<br>
clients are all the rage.<br>
<br>
Would this be true if there hadn't ever been NAT? We'll never know...<br>
but it the architecture in use today, and NAT and strict firewalls don't<br>
break it at all.<br>
<br>
Matthew Kaufman<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 08:24:48 +0100<br>
From: Matthew Kaufman <<a href="mailto:matthew@matthew.at">matthew@matthew.at</a>><br>
To: Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>><br>
Cc: Brett Frankenberger <<a href="mailto:rbf%2Barin-ppml@panix.com">rbf+arin-ppml@panix.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] An article of interest to the community....<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4E6084C0.3040604@matthew.at">4E6084C0.3040604@matthew.at</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 9/2/11 6:16 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Brett Frankenberger wrote:<br>
><br>
>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 06:38:44PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
>>> Mike,<br>
>>> What risk do you see in listing un/under-utilized resources that is<br>
>>> not present in merely holding those resources?<br>
>> Can't say for sure, but I'd guess it's comparable to the risk that<br>
>> exists in taking out a full page add in the local newspaper announcing<br>
>> "I will drive 80 in the 60 MPH speed zone at milepost X on highway Y at<br>
>> XX:XX on XX/XX/2001" that isn't present in driving 80 in a 60 but not<br>
>> advertising when and where you will be doing it.<br>
>><br>
> Except that it would be more like doing that after the chief of police and<br>
> the commandant of the highway patrol had told you that making such<br>
> an announcement in and of itself would not cause them to pursue you.<br>
<br>
No, it is more like taking out an ad that says "I drive 80 MPH in the 60<br>
MPH speed zone at milepost X on highway Y every day at 9 AM" after being<br>
told that making such an announcement was ok and hoping that the chief<br>
of police and the commandant of the highway patrol are never replaced<br>
with people who noticed your ad.<br>
<br>
The reason we change laws instead of just hoping the enforcers will just<br>
be fair despite what the language says is precisely because the<br>
enforcers change their minds and/or are retire and are replaced.<br>
<br>
><br>
>> If your resources are underutilized, ARIN *could* do a section 12 audit<br>
>> and initiate reclamation. If you don't tell anyone that you are<br>
>> underutilized, ARIN won't know, so they only way you'd get hit with an<br>
>> audit is if you got really unlucky. If you tell the world (by putting<br>
>> them up for auction), the risks get higher, because ARIN knows (or at<br>
>> least has a strong indication) that you are underutilized.<br>
>><br>
> In spite of John's claims to the contrary, I actually believe that ARIN should<br>
> begin performing random reviews as time permits and should certainly<br>
> be looking for resources that appear to have a pattern of un/under-<br>
> utilization.<br>
<br>
And this is even worse. We have members of the community saying "I know<br>
you've said that you're not going to be enforcing the speed limit for<br>
these flagrant violators, but I'd like you to start doing so".<br>
<br>
><br>
>> ARIN hasn't made a practice of doing that, and I agree with John's<br>
>> statement that they aren't likely to start doing that. But if they<br>
>> don't know you are underutilized, your risk is lower than if they do<br>
>> know and you're relying on them to nevertheless refrain from an audit.<br>
>> In my view, the risk is very low either way. But it is lower if ARIN<br>
>> doesn't have the information, and some companies are going to play it<br>
>> safe.<br>
>><br>
> John's statement wasn't that they aren't likely to start doing so. John's<br>
> statement was that he did not feel that they should start doing so.<br>
> John and I disagree in this area and I think at the end of the day<br>
> as scarcity becomes more of an issue, there will be more pressure<br>
> from the community to change John's position on this. John answers<br>
> to the board. The board answers to the members.<br>
<br>
And so the members have a legitimate reason to have the policy changed,<br>
rather than simply relying on John's word as to what he would choose to<br>
do this week as an indication of how policy will always be interpreted.<br>
<br>
Matthew Kaufman<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
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****************************************<br>
</blockquote><br></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><img src="http://api.ning.com/files/60Dc*7fMSnOD5inYWvnElhieb2y*e2O798iHVa48vgYOJUmz33g1MSmWAGQs0M2C7g4LXqAu0KvJ0c99k3kSouZfig33AnNo/emaillogo.jpg" height="61" width="58"><br>
<div>Rudi Daniel<div><i><a href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774" target="_blank">danielcharles consulting</a><br></i><b><span style="font-size:large"><font color="#006600"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774" target="_blank">1-784 498 8277</a></font></span></b></div>
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