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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rather than let my transit and peering providers summarize routes for me, I prefer to have the IPv4 tables be as slim as possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Those who request blocks are not those who maintain and purchase routers. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If we find out that disaggregation is not an issue we can always eliminate those policies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Mike Burns [mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:50 AM<br><b>To:</b> frnkblk@iname.com; 'Scott Leibrand'<br><b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-153 Correct erroneous syntax in NRPM 8.3<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This is all an unnecessary and needlessly confusing set of rules whose only purpose is to attempt to impose some restriction on the downwards slide towards disaggregation which will happen whatever policies we prescribe.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In a fluid transfer market, nobody will purposely select to fill their needs with a smattering of smaller netblocks, they will by nature attempt to acquire the largest block to suit their purchase requirements, if only to relieve them of configuration complexity.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In fact, my guess is that people will tend to round up, to allow for a little more room to grow within a contiguous block, bounded of course by the cost of holding unused inventory of addresses. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Larger netblocks are more likely to be routed everywhere than smaller ones, and this alone will drive consumers towards aggregation.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Creating a new and confusing set of rules related to timeframes for allowed purchases, tracking original registration sizes through potentially multiple transactions, restricting sellers from selling off chunks of their holdings, these things are exactly what would be wrong in putting the steward's lightest touch on things.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Because they would inevitably lead to buyers with a real need not getting addresses in a timely fashion, additional listing requirements (like original allocation size), and of course, lots more transactions happening off the books and leading to a decay in Whois accuracy and representing a failure of our primary stewardship role.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>And where is the evidence that this will serve as an actual check on disaggregation, and where is the evidence that we are BGP-table bound, in any real sense?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The check on the growth of the table will not come from the RIR's, in a post-exhaust world, it will come from the decisions of the network operator group about what the minimum routable block size is.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I oppose the policy.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:frnkblk@iname.com" title="frnkblk@iname.com">Frank Bulk</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" title="scottleibrand@gmail.com">'Scott Leibrand'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" title="arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, May 31, 2011 8:10 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-153 Correct erroneous syntax in NRPM 8.3<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As long as everyone works within the ARIN transfer policy, attaching the limits on the recipients would seem sufficient. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Echoing previous posters’ concerns, those who fall under the “3 month” needs demonstration may create more disaggregation if they have to get small chunks every time rather than a chunk two or three times larger. Ideally they’re buying the chunks contiguously. I don’t know if we can/should incent them to do that, or if having a contiguous block and not having to find a new seller each time is incentive enough. I mean, if they really think they’re going to grow, they’ll likely want to create a contract from the same seller to buy more chunks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Scott Leibrand [mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 31, 2011 12:27 AM<br><b>To:</b> frnkblk@iname.com<br><b>Cc:</b> Owen DeLong; arin-ppml@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-153 Correct erroneous syntax in NRPM 8.3<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>ARIN deaggregates /8s into /22s and /20s today, so that's not really much different. It seems that any restriction needs to be on the recipient getting a bunch of deaggregates, not on a large block holder transferring to lots of smaller recipients. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On May 30, 2011, at 7:16 PM, "Frank Bulk" <<a href="mailto:frnkblk@iname.com">frnkblk@iname.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That’s a good goal, but how does this policy manage disaggregation where a larger block owner has the opportunity to sell to different buyers? For example, the owner of a /8 that has an unused /10 could sell /12’s to four different buyers. On one hand there’s a desire to minimize disaggregation, on the other hand if there’s unused space that others with a validated need could use, why not.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Owen DeLong [mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 30, 2011 11:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:frnkblk@iname.com">frnkblk@iname.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-153 Correct erroneous syntax in NRPM 8.3</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If they can find two /15s that started out as /15s, then there's no problem. The issue comes if they, for example,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>find someone with a /8 and want to get two disparate /15s from within that /8. The intent here is to require<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>the /8 holder to renumber enough to make a contiguous /14 available rather than transferring two disparate<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>/15s and disaggregating them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On May 29, 2011, at 9:34 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’m confused. If an organization can demonstrate need for a /14 and they can only find a /15 in the market today, why should they have to wait a whole year if they can find another /15 just a few months later? Why should we penalize them for the fact that the supply at the time of need is low? Is it because you want someone else with demonstrable need to get that second /15? If that’s the case, won’t that be based on who’s willing to pay top dollar for that /15? </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Frank</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Owen DeLong<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Sunday, May 29, 2011 10:46 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Brett Frankenberger<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-153 Correct erroneous syntax in NRPM 8.3</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'><snip></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>What I would think makes more sense as policy would be:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Organizations may transfer multiple address blocks but<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>no organization shall receive more than one address block<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>per year where said address block is smaller<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>than its original registered size.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'><snip></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>