<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">RIRs are not particularly whimsical folks. I think this is a non-risk.<div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><div><div>On May 24, 2011, at 8:38 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The risk of including the requirement of agreement by the RIRs is that it leaves transfers to their whim.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">We could rephrase it in some way to presume that that transfer will go through, but that either party reserves the right to reject the transfer out or in.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, May 24, 2011 1:18 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:frnkblk@iname.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">frnkblk@iname.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Integrating Draft Policy ARIN-2011-1 into NRPM 8.3<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">There may be some other policy or legal reason that either RIR may wish to block the<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">transfer and I want to give staff the ability to address unforeseen circumstances in a<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">complicated and shifting environment that could change without input through our<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">PDP by doing the closest they can come to "the right thing" based on sound judgment<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">rather than being ratholed by our policy which cannot possibly adapt fast enough.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Owen<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On May 23, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Can you explain why? It’s not that ARIN-2011-1 binds the non-ARIN RIR to receive the netblock.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Frank</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 23, 2011 11:56 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:frnkblk@iname.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">frnkblk@iname.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Integrating Draft Policy ARIN-2011-1 into NRPM 8.3</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I prefer to preserve the safety valve of requiring agreement from both RIRs.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Owen<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On May 23, 2011, at 8:53 PM, Frank Bulk wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Why don’t we change the second point to:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">+ to another RIR, for transfer to a specified recipient in that RIR's service<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">region, if the request meets both RIRS’ transfer policies.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Frank</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Scott Leibrand<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 23, 2011 5:17 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Mike Burns<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Integrating Draft Policy ARIN-2011-1 into NRPM 8.3</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mike@nationwideinc.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Hi Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">In the context of this proposal, may I ask what would happen if APNIC accepted a transfer of ARIN legacy addresses and updated their Whois, even if ARIN refused the transfer?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I suppose what would matter in that case is who IANA pointed to. To date, we haven't seen cases where two different RIRs were both claiming authority for the same address block, and I don't expect to see that, as all of the RIRs are committed to operating within the "RIR system".<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">(Because the language of the proposal pointedly excludes APNIC, if their current policy remains in place.)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">I know that ARIN could revoke and reissue.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">How is inter-RIR conflict resolved, is there a process in place for conflict resolution?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes, I believe there is, but I don't know the details. I presume it would be a largely consensual process within the ASO/NRO/IANA framework (perhaps within the NRO EC?).<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Do the RIRs generally have compatible needs-based transfer policies, I mean I know APNIC doesn't, but do the other RIRs have the same 3-month window, for example?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Is a difference in the needs window enough to prevent a transfer?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If so, do we need to consider other RIRs and the impact on inter-RIR transfers when we consider proposals to change the needs window?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">What if RIPE joins APNIC with a requirement like a /24 maximum, is that something that makes the needs requirements incompatible?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I don't consider any such differences in timeframes, size minimums/maximums, etc. to be incompatibilities in the context of 2011-1. But ARIN has said that, as things stand today, the lack of explicit needs basis in APNIC's transfer policy would make it incompatible with 2011-1's requirement for "compatible, needs-based transfer policies". I hope we can come to an agreement with the APNIC community on language or interpretation that would be compatible with both regions' needs and preferences, but 2011-1 as I see it is just the first step in that direction: setting up a framework that would allow inter-RIR transfers once such incompatibilities are resolved somehow (or with other RIRs where such incompatibilities may not exist).<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">I guess I am asking for a more detailed definition of the word "compatible" in your proposed language.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Maybe that language is extraneous, as you are already requiring both RIRs to agree?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Operationally, the two are quite related, in that ARIN will not agree unless they assess the other RIR's transfer policy to be compatible. But the "RIRs agree" language is also there as a safety valve to explicitly allow an RIR to not agree to a transfer if it has reason to believe that the transfer would violate policy or law.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">-Scott (speaking only for myself, as usual)<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136); "> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">----- Original Message -----</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" title="scottleibrand@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Scott Leibrand</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" title="owen@delong.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Owen DeLong</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Cc:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" title="arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ARIN-PPML List</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Monday, May 23, 2011 5:21 PM</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Re: [arin-ppml] Integrating Draft Policy ARIN-2011-1 into NRPM 8.3</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I could support this, but, I have a couple of lingering concerns.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I think that the last sentence dictates too much in the case of a transfer to another region and should only apply to transfers within the ARIN region.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. Possible slight revision inline below...<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I would like to see us relocate the<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">single aggregate clause to make it binding on the actual community intent and if we're<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">going to turn 2011-1 into a policy to modify 8.3 anyway, we should incorporate that<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">change.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I would like to see another proposal to do this (and to be discussed as a counterpoint to ARIN-prop-144 in Philadelphia). <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On May 23, 2011, at 15:54, Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">In light of the discomfort a number of community and AC members feel with the original 2011-1 text, I thought I'd make an attempt at integrating it into the framework of NRPM 8.3, to see if the result would be tighter and less ambiguous. Here's what I came up with:<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">8.3. Transfers to Specified Recipients<br><br>In addition to transfers under section 8.2, IPv4 number resources may be released to ARIN by the authorized resource holder, in whole or in part, for transfer:<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in; "><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">to a specified organizational recipient within the ARIN region, or <o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">to another RIR, for transfer to a specified organizational recipient in that RIR's service region, if the two RIRs agree and maintain compatible, needs-based transfer policies.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Such transferred number resources may only be received under RSA by organizations that can demonstrate the need for such resources, as a single aggregate, in the exact amount which they can justify under current ARIN policies. <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">How about "<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Such number resources may only be received under RSA by organizations that can demonstrate the need for such resources, as a single aggregate, in the exact amount which they can justify under current ARIN, or recipient RIR, policies." ?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Or, feel free to suggest text...</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">-Scott</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; "><div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">For reference, existing policy reads:<br>8.3. Transfers to Specified Recipients<br><br>In addition to transfers under section 8.2, IPv4 number resources within the ARIN region may be released to ARIN by the authorized resource holder, in whole or in part, for transfer to another specified organizational recipient. Such transferred number resources may only be received under RSA by organizations that are within the ARIN region and can demonstrate the need for such resources, as a single aggregate, in the exact amount which they can justify under current ARIN policies.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">And original 2011-1 text reads:<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Any RIR's resource registrant may transfer IPv4 addresses to the resource registrant of another RIR as long as the two RIRs agree and maintain compatible, needs-based transfer policies that exercise Internet stewardship consistent with the values expressed in RFC2050.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">info@arin.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">info@arin.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">info@arin.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">=<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">=<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>