<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On May 11, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Mike Burns wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Hi Jon,</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Here are some examples of an entity that may want to purchase addresses but not demonstrate need:</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">1. A company with a 5 year planning horizon</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>That company probably wanted to get more address space from the free pool, too.</div><div>I fail to see a meaningful difference.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">2. A company that wants to provide temporary allocations</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>I suspect I could produce a justified need that would pass muster for such a business.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">3. A company that wants to specialize in very rapid allocations, like same-day service.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>We call those "ISPs" and they are able to provide justified need under policy today, so, I'm</div><div>not sure why you figure this would be different going forward.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">4. A company that stocks addresses for sale in to those who would pay more for guaranteed availability</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>I believe providing for such companies to the detriment of other organizations with more</div><div>immediate need is contrary to the interests of the community and represents one of the</div><div>many good reasons for preserving needs-basis in transfer policy.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">5. A company who is concerned about future supply.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Vs. everyone else who doesn't care? Get real.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">6. A company that wishes to lease address space rather than sell it</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>This could be answered either with my answer to number 3 (lease with network services) or</div><div>my answer to number 4 (lease without network services).</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">7. A company who seeks to buy up small allocations to aggregate them in to larger, more valuable netblocks</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>The end recipient can do this just as effectively and has justified need. The community receives</div><div>no benefit from this middleman.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">8. A seller of vanity ip addresses like 100.100.100.100</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>See answer number 4.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">9. A speculator willing to risk money to buy addresses as an investment for anticipated gains in address prices.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>See answer number 4.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">10. A company whose anticipated need does not begin for 12 months.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>See answer number 4.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">I'm sure there are many more that I cannot think of. I agree with you that most buyers will have need, and I agree with you that most buyers will see the value of maintaining a valid ARIN whois record pointing to their authority.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">But the policy in APNIC was changed to remove needs requirements for transfers for the same reasons I am requesting its removal here.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">My policy proposal also has the benefit of incentivizing legacy resources to come under RSA, and it serves to even the playing field between the disparate rights of legacy versus non-legacy holders.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>This is not entirely accurate. The transfer policy in APNIC was created without needs basis. It was not modified to remove it.</div><div><br></div><div>Rendering the RSA mostly moot in order to incentivize legacy holders to sign it is not a win IMHO.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">And my underlying point is the obvious one, that the very act of paying for address space is a very good indication of need, or at least perceived need on the part of the buyer.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Which is an assertion that makes me shake my head in dismay.</div><div><br></div><div>There are many many reasons to pay for address space outside of need. $LARGE_TELCO may want to make life</div><div>hard for all the independent Telcos and other smaller competitors in their service region. By purchasing very</div><div>large amounts of address space and then reselling it at a premium, or, worse, merely keeping it, they can</div><div>parlay their better capitalization into a serious anti-competitive act.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Regards,</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Mike</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="fernattj@gmail.com" href="mailto:fernattj@gmail.com">Jonathan Fernatt</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="mike@nationwideinc.com" href="mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com">Mike Burns</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="arin-ppml@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, May 11, 2011 10:55 PM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] IPv4 Transfer Policy Change to Keep Whois Accurate</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; "><div class="im"><br></div>What is the great benefit that outweighs the danger to Whois of unbooked transfers and the benefits of incentivizing legacy resources to come under RSA?<br>Who says my proposal would result in completely unregulated markets? Every transferee would sign an RSA and be subject to ARIN policy.<br>And with my policy or without my policy, addresses are bound to flow to the highest bidder.<br>If the policy proposal doesn't fly, it will be to the highest bidder who can show need.<br>Do you think that we should take more steps to protect the little guy in this event?<br>Maybe a price cap? An address czar?<br></blockquote><div> </div><div><br></div><div>I keep seeing seeing this argument from you Mike. I honestly can't understand why you think the needs requirement is such an obstacle for a company with a legitimate need for addresses that they would have to avoid ARIN altogether. Following that same train of thought, wouldn't it be easier for a company who didn't care about the process or being honest to just falsify their needs justification?</div><div><br></div><div>I deal with tiny tiny tiny companies who have had no problem whatsoever showing need for resources. ARIN staff and policy have always seemed very accommodating from my perspective. </div><div><br></div><div>Have you had a different experience?</div></div><br><div>Jon</div></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>Please contact<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.</div></span></blockquote></div><br></body></html>