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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi Owen,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR> </DIV>
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<DIV>What higher level is there than the community which is being
governed?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>This can get so tedious and semantic. Is
the governor higher than the governed? I say yes, you say
no.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Since he derives his power from the
consent of the governed, and answers to them via elections, you could say he
is lower than the governed.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>But if you want something adjudicated
between yourself and your neighbor, then the governor is the higher
authority.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>You can go around and around. If
you think the DoC is the source of authority, you view things in one
direction.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>If you think the community is the source
of authority, you view things in the other direction.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>What is clear is that there is a level
that is called to approve (rubberstamp) the decisions related to new
registries.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>This level is being asked to make the
decision about allowing a new private registry.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>If that level is answerable to the
community in one way or another, let the community use it's authority over
that level.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>If the ICANN board does decide the issue
and you don't like that, I guess you could try to change ICANN policy through
community participation.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The proposed private registry after
all, would be on the same level and performing the same function as the
RIRs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes... You once again
conflate the RIR and the RIR community. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>I don't see the problem with my
statement. The new private registry would be performing the same functions as
the RIRs, would you accede that?</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>ICANN is the higher level, in my mind, based on
their clear approval responsiblity for new RIRs, and their predating the
RIRs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>ICANN has a policymaking apparatus which is
being appealed to by the writer of the letter which started this
thread.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Your mind is clearly confused on multiple levels...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>ICANN does not predate RIRs. Both RIPE and APNIC, as does
ARIN.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>ICAN was formed in October of 1998.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>APNIC was formed in 1992.</DIV>
<DIV>RIPE NCC was formed in 1992</DIV>
<DIV>ARIN was formed in 1993</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Their approval responsibility for new RIRs is delegated to them by the
RIRs and serves as a</DIV>
<DIV>self-imposed check-and-balance on the RIR system. ICANN cannot approve a
new RIR without</DIV>
<DIV>the consent of the RIRs (as expressed through the NRO which is comprised
of the RIRs and</DIV>
<DIV>members elected by the RIR communities). Neither can ICANN withhold such
approval</DIV>
<DIV>except in a case where they feel that some aspect of the documented
policy and procedures</DIV>
<DIV>has not been met.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>ICANN has no apparatus for making number policy other than the ASO AC/NRO
NC which</DIV>
<DIV>is made up of members elected by the RIR communities. The ASO AC/NRO NC
process for</DIV>
<DIV>making policy is the global policy process which I have explained to you
before and for which</DIV>
<DIV>the first step is to pass substantially identical policy in all 5 RIR
policy processes as a proposed</DIV>
<DIV>global policy.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>If the letter asking the ICANN board to
decide was written to an entity without decisionmaking capability, then you
don't have to worry about them making a decision, I
guess.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Sorry, meant to say IANA preceded the
RIRs.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Here is a document I found which proposes that
ICANN adopts a set of requirements for those who wish to provide private
registry services:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><CITE><FONT color=#0e774a></FONT></CITE><SPAN
class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial><A
href="http://www.icann.org/en/correspondence/statement-ip-address-registrar-accreditation-policy-31mar11-en.pdf">http://www.icann.org/en/correspondence/statement-ip-address-registrar-accreditation-policy-31mar11-en.pdf</A></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>Given that this is shown as
"correspondence" and not attributed to a source but also does not</DIV>
<DIV>contain any information about it having been adopted, to the best of my
knowledge, this is</DIV>
<DIV>just a suggestion from some random source which has not necessarily
received any</DIV>
<DIV>community support for implementation.</DIV><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>I never said it was adopted, I figured
the source would be in the document, which I found on the icann.org site. But
it spells out the kinds of requirements a new registry would be required to
meet.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I just skimmed it,
but if the community decided that Benson's proposals suffered only from a
lack of oversight, and required action at a global level, then perhaps they
will add their voice to the support which I
offered.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Perhaps, but, you would still need a global policy proposal to voice
support for.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Unless ICANN board actually does make the
decision they are being asked to make. The link above is policy proposal
on the ICANN correspondence page, and it is referenced in this
letter:</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><A
href="http://www.icann.org/en/correspondence/holtzman-to-olive-02mar11-en.pdf">http://www.icann.org/en/correspondence/holtzman-to-olive-02mar11-en.pdf</A> <STRONG>providing
reasons for requesting the decision at the ICANN board level. Based on
the appeal to the authority of the DoC contract, I expect there could be a
further appeal to the DoC or NTIA level if the ICANN board decides not to make
a decision. It is interesting that ICANN requested information from ARIN
instead of summarily dismissing the request as coming outside of policy.
ARIN's reply to ICANN is on the same site.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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class=Apple-style-span><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If
the action happens at this level as a result of an informed decisionmaking
process at ICANN, then I am happy because it will expedite the appearance of
competing registries.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV></SPAN>I'm not sure I can parse
what you are saying here in the context of the current way</DIV>
<DIV>decisions are made by either ICANN (with the limitations that exist on
their</DIV>
<DIV>decision making ability) or the RIR level.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>If the ICANN board decides the issue than
I am happy because I think competing registries will be allowed, and because I
think ICANN is a higher level than ARIN and can mandate that ARIN share bulk
whois data with competing registries.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>And why do I want
competing registries? Is it because ARIN charges too much, or their website
is hard to navigate?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Is it because I
wish to take my business elsewhere as a statement against ARIN staff? Is it
their response time?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Is it because I am
a buyer who requires more than officer attestation for determining the right
to sell addresses?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Is it because I am
a buyer who does not wish to sign an LRSA or RSA?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Is it because I
choose a 5 year planning horizon?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Do I want to
transfer out of region?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>No, none of those
reasons, although are all, in my mind, potentially valid reasons for
somebody to change registries.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>It is because I
think a competing registrar would naturally reduce barriers to
transfers.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>It is, perhaps, exactly this
reduction of barriers that leads me to believe that competing registries</DIV>
<DIV>would be a bad idea. I believe that the barriers that exist in the
transfer process today were</DIV>
<DIV>considered by the community and have the support of the vast majority of
community members.</DIV>
<DIV>I believe they were placed there for good reason and represent
appropriate safeguards in the</DIV>
<DIV>proper stewardship of number resources.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Proper stewardship is to make policy that
will increase the supply of addresses and bring down their price, while
increasing whois reliability and removing the biggest distinction between
legacy and non-legacy addresses.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
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<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>And that is my
underlying goal. In fact, ARIN could probably pull the rug out from under a
private registry by beating them to the punch and removing restrictions for
all transfers.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>Q.E.D...
"If ARIN merely abandons its stewardship role, we wouldn't need other
registries to</DIV>
<DIV>do that instead." In my opinion, stewardship is a good thing that should
not be abandoned.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Are you accusing the APNIC community of
abandoning stewardship, and if they did, why do you think they did that? Is
the region largely peopled by IPv4 profiteers?</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
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<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>(I think needs
analysis should be done on free-pool allocations, though. I hope that goes
without saying.)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>I
fail to see a reason that needs analysis should not be done on transfer
recipients. Nothing</DIV>
<DIV>you have said so far makes the case for that. If you could get the
community to come to</DIV>
<DIV>consensus that needs basis should be abandoned, a simple ARIN policy
proposal could</DIV>
<DIV>cause ARIN to do so. I believe that the community consensus is against
such an abandonment</DIV>
<DIV>of stewardship and so development of competing registries to override
that community</DIV>
<DIV>judgment strikes me as inappropriate at best.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I think I have made my case to the
community that maintaining a needs requirement in a post-exhaust world is not
a requirement of stewardship.</FONT><BR><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I suppose the
discussion part has ended its productive phase and that it is time for a
proposal so the community's voice can be heard one way or the
other.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>I will try to get a proposal knocked
together. I looked at the template last night.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Owen, is it better to provide three
examples of proposals with slightly different language, or one more general
one that can be modified through discussion?</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2 face=Arial>As in, should I make separate proposals
to remove needs justification from legacy transfers only, and one for
non-legacy, and one for both?</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Regards,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Mike</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2 face=Arial>As for the talk
about the perils or benefits of free markets, I will leave that aside in the
belief that the readers have internalized our different
perspectives.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=f><SPAN class=gl><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<DIV>Likely true.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Owen</DIV>
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