<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On May 3, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Mike Burns wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14px; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Hi Dan,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">It is just that it seems circular to me that RIRs
decide whether to extend their own oversight rules to competing registries.
</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Repeating a false assumption does not make it true.</div><div><br></div><div>The RIRs don't decide, the RIR communities decide. The RIRs act on the basis of the policies developed</div><div>by their communities.</div><div><br></div><div>Currently there is no provision for "competing" registries and so there is no such structure against</div><div>which to base such an assertion. Indeed, in order to create competing registries, a global policy</div><div>specifying the structure by which those would be managed and/or regulated would need to be</div><div>adopted.</div><div><br></div><div>Such a global policy would need the assent of all 5 RIR communities and would then be adopted</div><div>by the ASO AC and, essentially, rubber-stamped by the ICANN board. The ICANN board role is</div><div>(as noted in the documents) primarily to act as a check and balance to ensure that global policies</div><div>were developed through the correct process and can be feasibly implemented at the ICANN level.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14px; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">If they can decide elements related to their own
oversight, who is overseeing them?</font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Again, you have repeated the same invalid assumption and are asking questions based on that</div><div>assumption. The RIRs do not decide their own oversight. The RIR communities decide the</div><div>oversight. The communities oversee the RIRs. The RIRs oversee only the address resources</div><div>under their administration. The elected members of the ARIN AC and the ARIN BoT oversee</div><div>the policy development process by which the community expresses those policies. Those</div><div>members are overseen by the members of ARIN who elect them.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14px; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">If they are overseeing themselves, why is IANA
approval needed for the creation of new RIRs?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">(Formality or not.)</font></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14px; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div> </div></div></blockquote>Look at how IANA is governed in this regard. It is, essentially, the collective of the RIRs.</div><div>The NRO NC (comprised of members elected by the RIR communities) serves as the ASO AC</div><div>and is the body that does this approval.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14px; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">But I understand the concept you are invoking here
about under-sight guarding oversight, if you will.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Mike</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="Daniel_Alexander@Cable.Comcast.com" href="mailto:Daniel_Alexander@Cable.Comcast.com">Alexander, Daniel</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="mike@nationwideinc.com" href="mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com">Mike Burns</a> ; <a title="arin-ppml@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:34 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Fw: Accusation
offundamentalconflictofinterest/IPaddress policy pitched directly to
ICANN</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Hey Mike,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I will get you the dates shortly. Just confirming some of the
deadlines. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On a separate point, I have to disagree with one comment below. Quis
custodiet ipsos custodes, suggesting the RIR oversee themselves. The problem
is that the RIR do not make the policies. It is the thousands of individuals
in the Internet technical community around the world (of which you are
included) that make the rules. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have seen Internet policy shaped by large corporations, small town
ISPs, individuals from all corners of the globe that have no political clout
or financial influence, and am watching you shape the discussion right here.
This past week I have seen the head of ARIN acknowledge several points made on
this list regarding transfer policies, the RSA, and operational procedures
that may lead to changes in the future. I have a hard time understanding your
question of who is watching the RIR when you are one of the watchmen you are
asking about.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-Dan</div>
<div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From: </span>Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com">mike@nationwideinc.com</a>><br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Date: </span>Tue, 3 May 2011 15:02:03 -0400<br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: </span>Microsoft Office User <<a href="mailto:daniel_alexander@cable.comcast.com">daniel_alexander@cable.comcast.com</a>>,
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Fw: Accusation of
fundamentalconflictofinterest/IPaddress policy pitched directly to
ICANN<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14px; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Hi Dan,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Yes, I do support the kind of oversight
recommended in the letter, using as a model the requirements to be a DNS
registrar.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Perhaps this alone is justification for the
highest level decisionmaking.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Since a competing registry would be on the same
level as the existing RIR's, in effect we would be asking the RIRs to oversee
themselves if we allowed the RIRs to decide the issue, whether at the RIR or
ASO level.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><em>Quis custodiet ipsos
custodes?</em></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I do understand and appreciate the beauty of the
non-governmental approach to Internet governance.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I think the many kinds of conflicts you reference
in your last paragraph are likely to be sorted out around the world in courts
and legislatures, which I think are probably better suited to that task than
ARIN.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Much like the evolution (or de-evolution) of the
Domain Name System.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I will certainly vet any policy proposal I offer
here, though can you give me an idea of the timeframe for proposals to be
considered at the next AC meeting, should enough support manifest on the
list?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Mike</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="Daniel_Alexander@Cable.Comcast.com" href="mailto:Daniel_Alexander@Cable.Comcast.com">Alexander, Daniel</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="arin-ppml@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:49
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Fw: Accusation
of fundamentalconflictofinterest/IPaddress policy pitched directly to
ICANN</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Mike,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As one of the AC shepherds for the proposals that were abandoned, I
would offer one suggestion. Feel free to vet the proposal language you are
considering here on this list prior to submitting an actual proposal. That
is what this list is for. It would also help refine the scope that Keith
mentions, and avoid the confusion that earlier proposals created. It is much
easier to refine and evolve policy language on the ppml before it becomes
part of the PDP process. </div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"><br></span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">If you
look </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">back to proposals 133, 134, and 136, they suggested
that resource holders </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">could
opt-in, opt-out, or find the lowest common denominator to
establish </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">claim. </span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">While this would allow for what you propose, they
offered none of the oversight that you advocate, which is also why there was
such a cold reception. </span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span"><br></span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">You can see how a competing registry, that is
operating properly, could do so in a complimentary manner to the RIR. One
thing people will have issue with is how the overall model can exist with
the individuals who would try to create registries that would not apply
similar standards of operation. Without any protections, the ISP's who would
have to rely on this data would not be able to depend on the overall system
(not referring to any particular registry) which is the shift in burden I
mentioned in an earlier post. </span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span"><br></span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">While people may have issues with the quality of
whois, or registration of assignments, there is an upside to the current
system. In this region, data points to ARIN and anyone can get involved,
change the rules, and try and hold ARIN accountable. In the distributed
model that is proposed, accountability is spread out, and the ability to
resolve conflicts or issues becomes much harder. These are the kind of
concerns that need to be addressed in order to gain momentum on a change of
this scale. </span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span"><br></span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">I hope this helps.</span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span"><br></span></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri" class="Apple-style-span">Dan Alexander</span></span></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: Consolas; FONT-SIZE: medium"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Calibri">ARIN AC- speaking only for
myself</font></div>
<div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From: </span>"Keith W. Hare" <<a href="mailto:Keith@jcc.com">Keith@jcc.com</a>><br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Date: </span>Tue, 3 May 2011 13:56:28
-0400<br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: </span>Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@nationwideinc.com">mike@nationwideinc.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Fw: Accusation of
fundamental conflictofinterest/IPaddress policy pitched directly to
ICANN<br></div>
<div><br></div>
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<div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So
far, we have seen only bits of policy proposals that hint at the idea of
competing private address registries. Without a policy proposal that covers
all of the details, we are left to extrapolate the remaining pieces. This
extrapolation may or may not be what competing address registry proponents
have in mind, but until we see a full policy proposal, we are left with only
perceptions of your (and others) motivations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Keith<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mike Burns<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:23
PM<br><b>To:</b> John Sweeting<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [arin-ppml] Fw: Accusation of fundamental conflictofinterest/IPaddress
policy pitched directly to ICANN<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong>It really is as easy as rounding up all the
support you can muster, have that support join PPML, submit the proposal
that you would like see made policy and then have your support show their
support through PPML and the next PPM. Is there a reason you do not want to
follow that process? It might help gain support if you provided your
underlying motivation(s).</strong><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br><strong><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif">-John
Sweeting</span></strong></span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
John,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My interest is in
having a market for the buying and selling of IP addresses free from
government and psuedo-government restrictions like taxes and justification
requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think this will
best serve the interests of a community long held in thrall to the vision of
an IPv6 transition that simply has not occurred in anything like the
predicted timeframe.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would prefer that
any support I find not be motivated by perceptions of my motivations,
just my words and ideas.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I voiced support for
the concept of having a informed higher authority make the decision about
competing registries requested in the letter which started the thread. I
support competing registries because I believe that their competitive forces
will move the market towards freedom, and because presumably a competing
registry could decide its own, more liberal transfer
policy.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My understanding is
that one way to get that accomplished, and I will accede it would be the
better way, would be for the participants in policy making in all 5
RIRs come together to forge a policy allowing for competing private
registries.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But I think that is
like expecting Network Solutions to have voted for competing DNS
registrars. Unlikely to happen due to institutional conflicts of interest.
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(I understand that
NetSol was not a community run org like the RIRs, but I see a natural
institutional conflict between those who dominate a closed market
and those who seek to expand it.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(And yes, this is
also a commentary on the tiny number of participants who seem to people the
RIR executive positions, and by extension the tiny groups of vocal
participants in the RIR-PPML process.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(And yes, I have
lost trust in ARIN staff since the MS/Nortel
debacle)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But nobody seems too
sure what that higher authority is, and of course some participants see the
community of RIR-PPML participants as the highest authority of
all.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I didn't write that
letter, nor do I have any relationship with the writer of the letter, to my
knowledge I have never met, conversed, or emailed with
him.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As for changing
policy in the ARIN region, that is my intent, and I have heard from another
poster who is interested in co-sponsoring a proposal designed to create a
free market for ip transfers.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So I will work with
him to do just as you say, round up support and see if we can get a proposal
that passes muster with the PPML and can be included in the next
PPM.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mike
Burns</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________
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