<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<title>Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2010-10 (Global Proposal):GlobalPolicy for
IPv4 Allocations by the IANA Post Exhaustion- Last Call (textrevised)</title>
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.avgcert, li.avgcert, div.avgcert
{mso-style-name:avgcert;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=WordSection1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My statement wasn’t about reclaiming legacy space. That’s
a debate that never seems to end. My statement and concern was about the
integrity of the registration data for blocks transferred outside the ARIN
policy by orgs that choose not to have anything to do with the rest of us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In my example “Bob” is a real person. He
really does have a legacy /16 that he is just waiting to sell off in
pieces. He has no desire to participate in any of ARIN’s processes
and doesn’t feel he’s obligated to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My question still stands: What happens to the registration
data when people start buying legacy IP space outside ARIN’s
policies. Does it become useless, thus rendering ARIN’s primary
duty worthless? Do we need to be looking at some sort of policy that
addresses “black market” IP transfers. Is there a policy
already for dealing with that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John made a statement about playing fair with legacy
holders. I would be interested in what the definition of “fair”
is? Is it those of us who choose to play by the rules footing the bill
for and cleaning up the messes of those who don’t?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Aaron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ted
Mittelstaedt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 02, 2010 10:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2010-10 (Global
Proposal):GlobalPolicy for IPv4 Allocations by the IANA Post Exhaustion- Last
Call (textrevised)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On 11/2/2010 5:38 PM, Bill Darte wrote:<br>
> Never, in my memory, has the debate over recovery of legacy addresses<br>
> been given more than superficial treatment.<br>
><br>
<br>
I think that this is because ultimately the goal isn't to take legacy<br>
resources away that are IN USE.<br>
<br>
Ultimately the goal should be to take legacy resources away that are<br>
either being hoarded, or are abandoned.<br>
<br>
Aaron's example is towards the point, but it doesn't go far enough.<br>
You see, as long as all of the 256 people who "bought" the /24's from<br>
Bob are USING THEM then really there isn't a problem.<br>
<br>
The problem is that 3 years after Bob has done his "sale" about<br>
50% of the orgs he "sold" to are still using their /24's - and the<br>
rest aren't. Bob got his money, he's not interested anymore. And<br>
ARIN has no lever to make Bob get interested.<br>
<br>
> Seems that the typical statements that stop debate is that such a course<br>
> would be prohibitively expensive from a legal point of view<br>
<br>
Rubbish. If ARIN takes over an abandoned Legacy resource then since<br>
it is abandoned, the original org that had it cannot suffer damages,<br>
and since it hasn't suffered damages, it has no standing to sue in<br>
court.<br>
<br>
The problem is that since the original Legacy holder did NOT ever sign<br>
an agreement with ARIN then ARIN has no contractual justification to<br>
take over an abandoned Legacy assignment even if they know it's unused,<br>
because so far the community has not given ARIN permission to do this<br>
via policy in the NRPM.<br>
<br>
and a real<br>
> PR nightmare to boot...or at least not a 'value' proposition.<br>
><br>
> One way to have such a debate is to make a proposal through the regular<br>
> process of the PDP. If you feel strongly about your position, you are<br>
> welcome to draft such a proposal and let the discussion begin....<br>
><br>
<br>
Uh, I did. And it was my first draft of the POC cleanup that<br>
kickstarted the later policy that ultimately resulted in the system<br>
to purge abandoned POCs.<br>
<br>
However, I did not address POCs that RESPONDED yet were NOT using<br>
Legacy (or other) resources.<br>
<br>
Right now, Legacy netblocks that are attached to POCs that ARIN<br>
determines are non-respondent, can ultimately be freed up. All ARIN<br>
has to do is determine a POC is abandoned and when ALL POCs that<br>
are on a particular Legacy block change to abandoned status, then<br>
the resource is, (in my opinion) effectively freed, and (in my opinion)<br>
ARIN should move it back into the free pool of assignable IPv4<br>
<br>
I would hope that ARIN would just do this by themselves, but maybe<br>
we need yet another policy to state the obvious.<br>
<br>
But that does not answer the Legacy space that is unused, yet still<br>
has a respondent POC on it. Or Legacy space that the master block<br>
has an abandoned POC but has active POC's that are in SWIPS that<br>
were filed on parts of it.<br>
<br>
And on top of that, not too long ago I thought the AC stated they would<br>
no longer entertain drafts of policy changes that dealt entirely with<br>
IPv4. So please don't duck behind this "if you think you have a
better<br>
method then make a proposal" bullcrap.<br>
<br>
There are too many people now in the ARIN community that just want to<br>
bury IPv4 and really aren't interested in mining possibly usable IPv4<br>
from Legacy resources. They want to believe if we just ignore it we<br>
can leave IPv4 behind in a few years and switch everything to IPv6 and<br>
they won't believe this isn't going to happen right away until it just<br>
doesn't happen right away. Maybe they are right. I just hope that
if<br>
they are not, that they start mining.<br>
<br>
Ted<br>
<br>
<br>
> bd<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net on behalf of Aaron Wendel<br>
> Sent: Tue 11/2/2010 6:10 PM<br>
> To: arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2010-10 (Global<br>
> Proposal):GlobalPolicy for IPv4 Allocations by the IANA Post Exhaustion-<br>
> Last Call (textrevised)<br>
><br>
> I took John's comments here:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> "The only they can't do is transfer resources outside of the
policies, as<br>
> ARIN has to maintain the registration database in accordance with the<br>
> community policies as adopted."<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> To mean that ARIN would not update the registration database with<br>
> information for a new org if legacy space was transferred outside of the<br>
> ARIN rules.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> My question about that is what happens to the integrity of the
registration<br>
> data when Bob, who obtained a /16 back in 1990, decides to sell it off in<br>
> /24s to 256 different people? Bob's given all those people LOAs with their<br>
> new /24s so they have no issues getting them routed but ARIN refuses to<br>
> change the registration. Bob's not in control of those blocks anymore and<br>
> doesn't care to answer questions about them and the "community"
has no way<br>
> of knowing who has those blocks and how to contact them.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Ted is correct. The community has given ARIN the mandate to hold out the<br>
> carrot in the form of the LRSA but no one seems to want to give ARIN a<br>
> stick. I would assume that's because the majority of the active ARIN<br>
> members, and by active I mean ones that participate on the list or at<br>
> meetings, are legacy holders themselves.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> If ARIN, whose primary job is to maintain the registration data, can't<br>
> insure the integrity of that registration data any more then what's the<br>
> point? Once one legacy holder kicks them in the groin and they don't fight<br>
> back it'll be a feeding frenzy.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I think the responsible thing for the community to do would be to give
ARIN<br>
> the stick they need.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Aaron<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net [<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
On<br>
> Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 5:38 PM<br>
> To: arin-ppml@arin.net<br>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2010-10 (Global Proposal):<br>
> GlobalPolicy for IPv4 Allocations by the IANA Post Exhaustion - Last Call<br>
> (textrevised)<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 11/2/2010 2:42 PM, John Curran wrote:<br>
> > On Nov 2, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> John,<br>
> >><br>
> >> How was the registration database maintained in accordance
with<br>
> community<br>
> >> policies and yet the ORG and POC information for some
legacy records has<br>
> >> been changed?<br>
> ><br>
> > Organizations with legacy address blocks may update their point
of<br>
> contact<br>
> > information (in fact, they can now do it online via ARIN
Online, probably<br>
> > why we have more than 20,000 ARIN Online accounts... :-)
Remember, we are<br>
> > actively requesting all organizations to update their Point of
Contact<br>
> (POC)<br>
> > information via electronic reminders. More information about
this program<br>
> > and its progress was given at the Atlanta meeting:<br>
> ><br>
> <https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_XXV/PDF/Monday/Nobil<br>
> e_POC_Validation.pdf><br>
> ><br>
> >> Are we to assume by your statements that the 16/8 block HAS
to have an<br>
> LSRA<br>
> ><br>
> >> signed, since the original recipients of this legacy block
are no longer<br>
> >> listed in the registration database?<br>
> >> And, if this is the case, can we assume that justification
was provided<br>
> per<br>
> >> NRPM 8.2?<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> Mike, the problem with the Legacy holders is that the ARIN community has<br>
> never agreed to exert the RIR's authority over them. There are many<br>
> historical reasons (some valid, some not) for this, but the Legacy<br>
> holders aren't stupid. They know that until the community unites<br>
> against them and tells them all to sign an LSRA and thus come under<br>
> obligation to the NRPM and it's justification requirements, (or face the<br>
> whois database being purged of their records) that they<br>
> can do whatever the hell they want. Including changing the POC to<br>
> some other org, essentially transferring the block to someone else.<br>
> John Curran is just trying to say this in a nice fashion to you. But<br>
> truthfully he has absolutely no lever over the non-LRSA Legacy holders,<br>
> because the one lever he can use, the community won't give to ARIN.<br>
><br>
> I frankly think that the situation now is more of a fairness thing,<br>
> it is grossly unfair to the LRSA signatories for some of their peers<br>
> to to continue to flout the intent of the LRSA and ignore it. I do<br>
> not understand why the RSA holders unite against the Legacy holders<br>
> and I -definitely- don't understand why the LRSA signatories unite<br>
> against the non-LRSA Legacy holders, but until that happens, nothing<br>
> is going to change.<br>
><br>
> Ted<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
> Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br>
><br>
> _____<br>
><br>
> No virus found in this message.<br>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>
> Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3233 - Release Date: 11/02/10<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
> Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
<a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center>
</div>
<p class=avgcert>No virus found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3234 - Release Date: 11/02/10<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>