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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Scott,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> Owen already attempted to submit a policy change to
2009-1 that re-instituted the sunset clause into 2009-1</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>and on April 8th </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>the AC used
(IMHO) a procedural trick to abandon his policy submission, claiming that
2009-1</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>is already reviewing whether to remove a sunset clause from
the NRPM or not. Of course, all "reviewing" has</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>come up with NOT reintroducing the sunset clause, (a
foregone conclusion) so when 2009-1 is instituted it will</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>have no sunset clause.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> That is very strong disincentive from the Board to
use sunset clauses on this transfer market business.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It is also very strong disincentive </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>to ever again
bother with submitting any proposals at all. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009></SPAN><SPAN
class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=528571722-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Ted</FONT></SPAN></DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Scott Leibrand
[mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 04, 2009 2:49
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Ted Mittelstaedt<BR><B>Cc:</B> John Sweeting; arin
ppml<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2009-1: Transfer Policy ?
Revisedandforwarded to the Board<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Ted,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I feel that a 3-year sunset would be bad policy given the immediate
imlementation of 2008-6. I think 5 years, or 3 years after IANA exhaustion,
would be appropriate, but I feel that would be best discussed as a normal
policy proposal. Anyone is welcome to introduce such a policy if you think
it's important. It would most likely be on the agenda this fall along with
2009-1. <BR><BR>
<DIV>-Scott</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On May 4, 2009, at 2:40 PM, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <<A
href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net">tedm@ipinc.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>AC had no need to make further policy to deal with the
impact since 2008-6 had an</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>automatic sunset. The entire point of the sunset
in 2008-6 was to see what the</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>unintended consequences would be and the only way to
find them out was to</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>implement the policy and see what happened. I
think most people expected that</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>after a year or so of 2008-6 that, armed with the
knowledge learned from the</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>experiment, we would write a much more comprehensive
policy that would</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>supersede 2008-6. The sunset was a deadline that
guaranteed this would</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>happen.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=473004219-04052009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Ted</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A>
[<A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Sweeting<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 04, 2009
12:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Leo Bicknell; arin ppml<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2009-1: Transfer Policy ? Revisedandforwarded to
the Board<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A few more bits of information. One reason that
the AC moved this proposal forward was that 2008-6 was already approved
and set to be implemented on June 1 so the issue was already there. I
believe it was accepted that the AC would make further review and come up
with a proposal that would deal with this impact. Also a point to note is
that this policy must be recertified at the next Public Policy Meeting
since it went through the Emergency Policy process. <BR><BR><BR>On 5/4/09
3:00 PM, "Leo Bicknell" <<A href="bicknell@ufp.org"><A
href="mailto:bicknell@ufp.org">bicknell@ufp.org</A></A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In a message written on Mon, May 04, 2009 at
12:21:01PM -0400, Member Services wrote:<BR>> The ARIN Advisory
Council (AC) met on 29 April 2009 and decided to send<BR>> a revised
version of 2009-1 to the Board for their consideration:<BR><BR>This
policy isn't in "last-call" per se, but given the PDP process<BR>I feel
this is the only appropriate time for me to make
these<BR>remarks.<BR><BR>I am a member of the Advisory Council, speaking
only for myself.<BR>During the various reviews and discussions the
Advisory Council<BR>performs after the meeting a particular aspect of
this policy was<BR>brought to (most of?) the AC's attention. I
would like to bring<BR>it to the community's attention as well. I
did not write notes on<BR>this at the time, so I am doing this from
memory. If I get it<BR>wrong, I hope someone corrects
me.<BR><BR>Billy has a /16, and he's using it for dial up services which
is<BR>not paying the bills anymore.<BR><BR>Suzie wants a /16 for her hot
new social networking experiment.<BR><BR>Billy and Suzie find each other
and agree to transfer Billy's /16<BR>to Suzie under the result of 2008-6
+ 2009-1.<BR><BR>Billy goes to ARIN and says "Here's a /16, please give
it to Suzie."<BR><BR>Suzie goes to ARIN and says, "I'm here for Billy's
/16". In the<BR>process, ARIN checks Suzie's justification, and
realizes Suzie can<BR>only justify a /18.<BR><BR>My understanding of the
current interpretation of 2008-6 + 2009-1<BR>is that ARIN would give
Suzie a /18, and keep a /18 and /17 in the<BR>free pool.<BR><BR>Billy
has given up his /16, and Suzie only got a /18 of it.<BR><BR>This ends
up being an artifact of the legal requirement that transfers<BR>must
occur through ARIN. My own personal view on how this would<BR>work
prior to finding this out was if Suzie couldn't receive Billy's<BR>/16
for any reason, Billy would retain the /16. Thus my
surprise,<BR>and I'm wondering if this isn't a surprise for others in
the<BR>community.<BR><BR>The recommended "fix", is that Suzie will be
able to "pre-qualify",<BR>that is go to ARIN with all of her paperwork
and get approved for<BR>a /18 before Billy and Suzie do a deal, so Suzie
knows this will<BR>not happen.<BR><BR>I think this ends up being bad for
three distinct reasons:<BR><BR>Technically:<BR><BR> This
causes deaggregation. In the example given a /16 was turned
into<BR> a /17 and two /18's. However, because a /17
and /18 are both now in<BR> the free pool they may be further
subdivided into /20's (or smaller,<BR> in some
cases).<BR><BR>Business:<BR><BR> It is likely Billy and Suzie
exchanged something of value during this<BR> transaction to
make it happen. Suzie has now "overpaid" for her
/18,<BR> and is likely to demand a refund from Billy, or
challenge ARIN's<BR> stance she can only justify a /18, or
both. Billy, of course, isn't<BR> going to want to give
a refund as he is out the entire /16, but he may<BR> also be
unhappy at ARIN for only approving her for a /18. It
sounds<BR> like a good way to get all the parties in a
transaction unhappy.<BR><BR> But also, it opens up an
interesting fraud. Alice could go to Billy<BR> and
offer to buy the /16 for a hundred million dollars. Billy
gets<BR> so excited over the idea of retiring from the dial
up business that<BR> he takes the deal. Alice gives him
a fake check, and Billy fills out<BR> the ARIN
paperwork.<BR><BR> But you see, it is a fake check, and Alice
had no intention of ever<BR> justifying the addresses to
ARIN. Billy figures out two weeks later<BR> the check
is fake from the bank, but he's already released the
addresses<BR> to ARIN and can't get them back. What's
Alice's motivation? Well,<BR> her alter-ego Janice is
sitting near the front of the line of folks<BR> waiting for
space to end up in the free pool. Good for her, a
/16<BR> just showed up.<BR><BR> But really this is
all added risk, and what business wants to<BR> participate in
a system with extra risk?<BR><BR>Politically:<BR><BR> This
interpretation of the policy is likely to affect the
most<BR> vulnerable the most. The savvy folks who are
doing all sorts of<BR> transfers are reading this post on
PPML now, and will understand<BR> the pitfalls of the system
and work around these issues by doing<BR> things like
prequalifing.<BR><BR> This issue is much more likely to trip
up the "one time" casual<BR> transferor or transferee who
last delt with ARIN in 1999 and<BR> doesn't do this as a day
job anymore. They are the ones who will<BR> accidently
encounter this situation.<BR><BR>Personally, I think ARIN should not let
this happen. The simplest<BR>fix I have come up with is to require
Suzie to fill out the recipient<BR>paperwork first. Billy should
not be able to designate a recipient<BR>without having some assurance
that end of the transaction is already<BR>approved from ARIN. This
could be as simple as Suzie giving Billy<BR>the ticket number under
which Suzie was approved, and Billy having<BR>to provide that ticket
number to release resources. In this way<BR>an exact match could
be insured, eliminating all of the problems<BR>listed above.<BR><BR>The
AC obviously moved this proposal on; so this was not seen as
a<BR>show-stopper issue by the majority of the AC. At a minimum,
I<BR>wanted to get the issue out to the community so if nothing is
changed<BR>the community is aware of the issue and will be able to avoid
it.<BR>I would hope this would end up documented on the ARIN web site
in<BR>fairly clear language as well; but given the accelerated
timetable<BR>for this proposal I didn't want to wait for that to occur
first.<BR><BR>--<BR> Leo
Bicknell - <A href="bicknell@ufp.org"><A
href="mailto:bicknell@ufp.org">bicknell@ufp.org</A></A> - CCIE
3440<BR> PGP keys at <A
href="http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/"><A
href="http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/">http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/</A></A><BR><BR>
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