<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Ted,</div><div><br></div><div>I feel that a 3-year sunset would be bad policy given the immediate imlementation of 2008-6. I think 5 years, or 3 years after IANA exhaustion, would be appropriate, but I feel that would be best discussed as a normal policy proposal. Anyone is welcome to introduce such a policy if you think it's important. It would most likely be on the agenda this fall along with 2009-1. <br><br><div>-Scott</div></div><div><br>On May 4, 2009, at 2:40 PM, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <<a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net">tedm@ipinc.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">AC had no need to make further policy to deal with the
impact since 2008-6 had an</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">automatic sunset. The entire point of the sunset in
2008-6 was to see what the</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">unintended consequences would be and the only way to find
them out was to</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">implement the policy and see what happened. I think
most people expected that</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">after a year or so of 2008-6 that, armed with the knowledge
learned from the</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">experiment, we would write a much more comprehensive policy
that would</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">supersede 2008-6. The sunset was a deadline that
guaranteed this would</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">happen.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="473004219-04052009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Ted</font></span></div><br>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>
[<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Sweeting<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 04, 2009 12:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> Leo
Bicknell; arin ppml<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2009-1:
Transfer Policy ? Revisedandforwarded to the Board<br></font><br></div>
<div></div>
<p><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A few more bits of information. One reason that the AC
moved this proposal forward was that 2008-6 was already approved and set to be
implemented on June 1 so the issue was already there. I believe it was
accepted that the AC would make further review and come up with a proposal
that would deal with this impact. Also a point to note is that this policy
must be recertified at the next Public Policy Meeting since it went through
the Emergency Policy process. <br><br><br>On 5/4/09 3:00 PM, "Leo Bicknell"
<<a href="bicknell@ufp.org"><a href="mailto:bicknell@ufp.org">bicknell@ufp.org</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></span></font>
</p><blockquote><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In a message written on Mon, May 04, 2009 at
12:21:01PM -0400, Member Services wrote:<br>> The ARIN Advisory Council
(AC) met on 29 April 2009 and decided to send<br>> a revised version of
2009-1 to the Board for their consideration:<br><br>This policy isn't in
"last-call" per se, but given the PDP process<br>I feel this is the only
appropriate time for me to make these<br>remarks.<br><br>I am a member of
the Advisory Council, speaking only for myself.<br>During the various
reviews and discussions the Advisory Council<br>performs after the meeting a
particular aspect of this policy was<br>brought to (most of?) the AC's
attention. I would like to bring<br>it to the community's attention as
well. I did not write notes on<br>this at the time, so I am doing this
from memory. If I get it<br>wrong, I hope someone corrects
me.<br><br>Billy has a /16, and he's using it for dial up services which
is<br>not paying the bills anymore.<br><br>Suzie wants a /16 for her hot new
social networking experiment.<br><br>Billy and Suzie find each other and
agree to transfer Billy's /16<br>to Suzie under the result of 2008-6 +
2009-1.<br><br>Billy goes to ARIN and says "Here's a /16, please give it to
Suzie."<br><br>Suzie goes to ARIN and says, "I'm here for Billy's /16".
In the<br>process, ARIN checks Suzie's justification, and realizes
Suzie can<br>only justify a /18.<br><br>My understanding of the current
interpretation of 2008-6 + 2009-1<br>is that ARIN would give Suzie a /18,
and keep a /18 and /17 in the<br>free pool.<br><br>Billy has given up his
/16, and Suzie only got a /18 of it.<br><br>This ends up being an artifact
of the legal requirement that transfers<br>must occur through ARIN. My
own personal view on how this would<br>work prior to finding this out was if
Suzie couldn't receive Billy's<br>/16 for any reason, Billy would retain the
/16. Thus my surprise,<br>and I'm wondering if this isn't a surprise
for others in the<br>community.<br><br>The recommended "fix", is that Suzie
will be able to "pre-qualify",<br>that is go to ARIN with all of her
paperwork and get approved for<br>a /18 before Billy and Suzie do a deal, so
Suzie knows this will<br>not happen.<br><br>I think this ends up being bad
for three distinct reasons:<br><br>Technically:<br><br> This
causes deaggregation. In the example given a /16 was turned
into<br> a /17 and two /18's. However, because a /17 and
/18 are both now in<br> the free pool they may be further
subdivided into /20's (or smaller,<br> in some
cases).<br><br>Business:<br><br> It is likely Billy and Suzie
exchanged something of value during this<br> transaction to make
it happen. Suzie has now "overpaid" for her /18,<br> and is
likely to demand a refund from Billy, or challenge
ARIN's<br> stance she can only justify a /18, or both.
Billy, of course, isn't<br> going to want to give a refund
as he is out the entire /16, but he may<br> also be unhappy at
ARIN for only approving her for a /18. It sounds<br> like a
good way to get all the parties in a transaction
unhappy.<br><br> But also, it opens up an interesting fraud.
Alice could go to Billy<br> and offer to buy the /16 for a
hundred million dollars. Billy gets<br> so excited over the
idea of retiring from the dial up business that<br> he takes the
deal. Alice gives him a fake check, and Billy fills
out<br> the ARIN paperwork.<br><br> But you see, it is
a fake check, and Alice had no intention of ever<br> justifying
the addresses to ARIN. Billy figures out two weeks
later<br> the check is fake from the bank, but he's already
released the addresses<br> to ARIN and can't get them back.
What's Alice's motivation? Well,<br> her alter-ego
Janice is sitting near the front of the line of folks<br> waiting
for space to end up in the free pool. Good for her, a
/16<br> just showed up.<br><br> But really this is all
added risk, and what business wants to<br> participate in a
system with extra risk?<br><br>Politically:<br><br> This
interpretation of the policy is likely to affect the
most<br> vulnerable the most. The savvy folks who are doing
all sorts of<br> transfers are reading this post on PPML now, and
will understand<br> the pitfalls of the system and work around
these issues by doing<br> things like
prequalifing.<br><br> This issue is much more likely to trip up
the "one time" casual<br> transferor or transferee who last delt
with ARIN in 1999 and<br> doesn't do this as a day job anymore.
They are the ones who will<br> accidently encounter this
situation.<br><br>Personally, I think ARIN should not let this happen.
The simplest<br>fix I have come up with is to require Suzie to fill
out the recipient<br>paperwork first. Billy should not be able to
designate a recipient<br>without having some assurance that end of the
transaction is already<br>approved from ARIN. This could be as simple
as Suzie giving Billy<br>the ticket number under which Suzie was approved,
and Billy having<br>to provide that ticket number to release resources.
In this way<br>an exact match could be insured, eliminating all of the
problems<br>listed above.<br><br>The AC obviously moved this proposal on; so
this was not seen as a<br>show-stopper issue by the majority of the AC.
At a minimum, I<br>wanted to get the issue out to the community so if
nothing is changed<br>the community is aware of the issue and will be able
to avoid it.<br>I would hope this would end up documented on the ARIN web
site in<br>fairly clear language as well; but given the accelerated
timetable<br>for this proposal I didn't want to wait for that to occur
first.<br><br>--<br> Leo Bicknell -
<a href="bicknell@ufp.org"><a href="mailto:bicknell@ufp.org">bicknell@ufp.org</a></a> - CCIE
3440<br> PGP keys at <a href="http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/"><a href="http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/">http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/</a></a><br><br>
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