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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I would not go that far right now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I can forsee a time that there will be a lot of pressure on
ARIN to rejustify all IPv4 blocks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I personally would not like having to do that, but OTOH our
IPv4 holdings are small and</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>it is not like it would take many weeks of effort.
However I would fight doing this if</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>the current situation with legacy holders essentially
getting their IPv4 numbering for free</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>was perpetuated.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I think professionally that the industry would be damaged
by being forced to rejustify</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>IPv4 holdings as it would encourage widespread fraudulent
reporting, and it would put</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>ARIN in the position where they would be happy to have
fraudulent reports since it would</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>just allow them to pass the buck and go back to whatever
was pressuring them and</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>say "see, they say they have 100% utilization so prove they
don't" It would also sink</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>a lot of labor and money into existing IPv4 holdings which
would be better spent on</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>IPv6 transitioning efforts. And of course, once an
org spends money on cleaning up</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>existing IPv4 holdings they will want to get their money's
worth out of the labor so it</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>would strongly encourage continuation of
IPv4.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>From a political viewpoint if ARIN cleans up things now, it
will give them the deniability</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>they need later on to fight against ham-handed efforts by
governments to force continuation</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>of IPv4. It's real difficult to argue there's a lot
of unused IPv4 when ARIN has a list of all</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>IPv4 holders that are current.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>What I do think they need to do right now is verify what is
documented. My guess is</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>that if they start verification efforts now that by
IPv4 runout date, they will have completed</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>verification on everything larger than a /16 and my guess
is that the major players with</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>political dollars and muscle to throw around, will not be
interested in a non-contiguous</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>block of IPv4 that is smaller than
that.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Almost certainly, the small fry (of which we are) will
be begging for under /16 and smaller</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>all the way down to /22's, /23's, /24's, for the next
decade. But, the small fry do not</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>have the political muscle and money to influence
governments and seriously damage</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>the RIR system, and can thus be safely
ignored.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I realize this is a cynical view but I'm speaking from what
your typical government bureaucrat</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>would be thinking, who doesn't know an IP address from a
postal address. I know that</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>the people who really understand this are a lot more
concerned with the rest of the</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>community. But I just see the amount of money flowing
over the Internet today, and I</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>think it is really naive to think that we will be able to
fight against that sort of influence</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>unless we have everything signed in triplicate, sent in,
sent back, queried, lost, found,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried
in soft peat for three months and</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>recycled as firelighters.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Ted</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=191271019-31032009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Bill Darte [mailto:BillD@cait.wustl.edu]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 30, 2009 6:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Ted
Mittelstaedt; Lee Howard; ppml@arin.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [arin-ppml]
clarification of Board actions Feb 2 and Mar 18,2009<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>So do you think ARIN needs to ask for all address space to be
re-justified, documented and when there is obvious under-utilization they
reclaim it?<BR><BR>Bill Darte<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net on behalf of Ted Mittelstaedt<BR>Sent: Mon
3/30/2009 7:38 PM<BR>To: 'Lee Howard'; ppml@arin.net<BR>Subject: Re:
[arin-ppml] clarification of Board actions Feb 2 and Mar
18,2009<BR><BR><BR><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net<BR>> [<A
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</A>]
On Behalf Of Lee Howard<BR>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:07 AM<BR>>
To: ppml@arin.net<BR>> Subject: [arin-ppml] clarification of Board actions
Feb 2 and<BR>> Mar 18, 2009<BR>><BR><BR><BR>> The<BR>> Board has
been concerned for some time that the lack of a<BR>> liberalized transfer
policy would create legal risk: that we<BR>> had not provided a mechanism
to improve the efficient<BR>> utilization of previously-allocated
resources, and that this<BR>> risk was significant enough to jeopardize
ARIN's ability to<BR>> fulfill its stewardship mission.<BR>><BR><BR>I
have been saying this same thing for years and this is<BR>why I proposed the
POC cleanup. HOWEVER it must be clear that<BR>this statement presumes
that the legal risk is created by<BR>the lack of a liberalized transfer
policy. This is a fundamentally<BR>flawed argument. The legal risk
is NOT created by this,<BR>the legal risk is created by INSUFFICIENT
utilization of<BR>assignable IPv4.<BR><BR>The fear argument goes something
like this:<BR><BR>When IPv4 runs out some large cash-rich org will request
a<BR>block and be denied. That org will then spend it's
money<BR>lobbying it's nation's government that the RIR's know that<BR>there's
lots of available IPv4 tied up in old assignments that<BR>aren't being used,
and that because ARIN has the bulk of it,<BR>and ARIN hasn't done enough to
scavenge out this stale addressing,<BR>that ARIN is no longer functioning, and
that the U.N. needs<BR>to assign a committee - like WIPO was done with the
DNS<BR>system - to interfere and take control of the assignment<BR>mechanism
away from ARIN.<BR><BR>ARIN will cease to exist and chaos will ensue.
Previously signed<BR>contracts will be voided out under the guise of an
emergency. There<BR>is plenty of legal precedent for this - for example,
in the US a bankruptcy<BR>court can wipe out contracts if it wants.<BR><BR>As
a follower of politics, I personally think this argument<BR>has a lot of
validity. But the Board and ARIN staff and many<BR>people are falling
for the idea that the problem is in the<BR>transfer policy. It IS NOT
and NEVER HAS BEEN.<BR><BR>It is in operations - it is failure to properly
document<BR>use of IP addressing.<BR><BR>Any county government today has FAR
BETTER documentation of<BR>land deeds than ARIN has of orgs assigned to IP
addressing.<BR>And their taxation departments go to the utmost in
finding<BR>landowners.<BR><BR>It is NOT necessary to create a
buying-and-selling market of<BR>IP numbers to obtain close to 100% use of
routable IPv4. It<BR>is merely necessary to prove that all assignable,
routable IPv4<BR>is in use on the Internet. Cleaning and grooming WHOIS
is a<BR>major first step.<BR><BR>IMHO what ARIN and the Board are attempting
to do is take the<BR>easy way out. They figure if they hang up a
for-sale sign on<BR>IP addressing that there's enough bottom-feeders and
scavengers<BR>out on the Internet who will be looking for a quick buck,
who<BR>will set themselves up as "brokers" of these IPv4 sales, that<BR>if
they end up getting sued, or if the United Nations decides<BR>to get involved,
that they can make the argument that since<BR>a financial incentive now exists
with this buying-and-selling market<BR>to scavenge up old IPv4 addresses,
obviously, there's no abandoned<BR>IPv4 floating around on the Internet,
because the scavengers<BR>are out there fishing it out of the
pond.<BR><BR>IMHO this is a very weak argument. It also assumes
that<BR>after the former-bottom-feeders, now IP-brokers<BR>have finished
cleaning out the IPv4 pool of usable IPv4, that<BR>they will mildly go off
into the sunset, and disappear. That<BR>isn't what will happen.
Instead these people will simply<BR>move into the business of creating complex
obfuscating<BR>schemes to get portable IPv6 to people who do not and never
will<BR>meet the qualifications for their own addressing - and the number
of<BR>routes in the dfz will soar to immense levels.<BR><BR>It is like if the
State of California decided that since they<BR>can't document 10% of the
current whereabouts of tax-dodging<BR>landowners owning land in CA, that they
should just declare that<BR>any Realtor who thinks that a piece of land is
abandoned<BR>is now allowed to just sell it to the highest bidder -
instead<BR>of what they actually do, which is the state takes back ownership
of the<BR>property as a result of failure to pay taxes.<BR><BR>It is an
utterly ridiculous argument when applied to most<BR>scarce resources, and the
reason some people are thinking<BR>it has validity to IP addressing is simply
because they aren't<BR>very experienced with the messes that are created when
trying to do this<BR>kind of thing with public
resources.<BR><BR>Ted<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PPML<BR>You
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