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<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Bill,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
URL would be helpful:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A
href="http://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2008_6.html">http://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2008_6.html</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
problem is the line: "<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000
size=3>transfer of ARIN IPv4 addresses between two entities in the ARIN region,
without the active involvement of ARIN as an intermediary, will be considered
legitimate"</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
Have you ever stood in line for movie tickets? I'm sure you
have.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
When your standing there and there's 50 people in front of you, and someone
walks up and wants</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>to
"take cuts" in front of the 3rd guy in line, the 3rd guy in line is not going to
let him unless he</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>gets
paid.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
And everyone else waiting in line behind the 3rd guy ISN'T going to be paid by
the guy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>taking
"cuts" in front of the 3rd guy. Naturally they are going to be a little
hot under the</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>collar.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This
is a market. You can play all the semantic games you want in the policy
proposal,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>it's
still a market.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>After
the very last IPV4 block is assigned from ARIN, the next day there may be
someone who</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>stops
paying their bill, and their block goes back to ARIN. ARIN will then
reassign it to the next</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>person
who had put in a request for IPv4 numbers. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>IPv4
runout is more correctly defined as the day that the demand for IPv4 exceeds the
supply.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>But
there will still be IPv4 handed out after that day.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This
transfer proposal allows deep pockets to "cut" in front of that line,
post-runout. Is that</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>fair
to everyone else who is trying to wait patiently in line for
numbering?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Imagine that movie ticket line if everyone was paying everyone else for a
chance to be the 3rd</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>guy in
line.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It
would resemble your typical line for something in Italy since the Italians have
no concept of</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>a
queue, any time that tickets or anything restricted goes on sale there, there's
a mad rush</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>and
everyone piles on, shoving to get to the front.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Ted</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=114162423-29092008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bill
Darte [mailto:BillD@cait.wustl.edu] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 29, 2008
3:59 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Ted Mittelstaedt; David Williamson; Kevin
Kargel<BR><B>Cc:</B> arin-ppml@arin.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [arin-ppml]
2008-6: Emergency Transfer Policy for IPv4 Addresses<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>I would like to remind everyone that 2008-6 has as
rationale....<BR>Rationale:<BR><BR>In order for ARIN to fulfill its mission
and to facilitate a continuing supply of IPv4 address resources to its service
community when ARIN resources are no longer adequate, and to preserve the
integrity of documentation and ARIN services for those resources, this policy
may be implemented. Its intent is to preserve the current tradition
of<BR>need-based allocation/assignments for those still needing IPv4 resources
during a transition period as the industry adopts IPv6. This policy is not
intended to create a 'market' for such transfers and does not introduce or
condone the monetization of address resources or a view of addresses as
property. It does recognize that organizations making available unused or no
longer needed address resources may incur certain costs that might be
compensated by those acquiring the resources. This policy is intended to be
transient and light-weight and does not encourage a sustained or continuing
role for IPv4, but rather helps to mitigate a transitional crisis that may
emerge while the industry adopts IPv6 in accordance with the recommendation of
ARIN's Board of Trustees.<BR><BR>.....Creating a liberalized transfer policy
is not the same as encouraging the buying and selling of IP address
resources.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net on behalf of Ted Mittelstaedt<BR>Sent: Mon
9/29/2008 4:54 PM<BR>To: 'David Williamson'; 'Kevin Kargel'<BR>Cc:
arin-ppml@arin.net<BR>Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] 2008-6: Emergency Transfer
Policy for IPv4 Addresses<BR><BR><BR><BR>David and Bill Darte,<BR><BR> I
agree with Kevin and Michael, I am against paying for
numbering<BR>transfers.<BR>However I will make the observation that I think
David is correct that this<BR>will<BR>happen even if we don't want it to, and
it will be black market. HOWEVER<BR>the point that seems to be missed is
that if it does go black market, that<BR>it WON'T HAPPEN until IPv4 runout
actually occurs.<BR><BR> Now is not the time to implement legalized
transfers based on money<BR>because if we do allow them or put language into
the NPRM at this time<BR>to permit them in the future, we are instantly
creating business<BR>justification<BR>for investment in holding companies that
do nothing other than lie, cheat<BR>and<BR>steal as much IPv4 as they can get
BEFORE runout. Meaning you will see a<BR>flood<BR>of ficticious requests
for IPv4 numbering go into the RIR's pre-runout,<BR>causing<BR>runout to
happen that much faster.<BR><BR> I would prefer to wait until AFTER IPv4
runout, when there is actual<BR>evidence<BR>of black-market IPv4 transfers,
THEN implement legalization. Discuss it all<BR>you want, but DON'T
IMPLEMENT ANYTHING OF THE SORT AT THIS TIME.<BR><BR> This policy is
basically ASSUMING that unauthorized transfers are going to<BR>happen and we
need to regulate them now. While we can suspect that they<BR>will
happen, and have a very STRONG guess that they will happen, suspicions<BR>and
strong guesses are NOT GROUNDS for policy. With the upcoming
POC<BR>cleanup<BR>proposals, we have PROOF that we have stale data in there
due to the<BR>number of Bitnet mail addresses discovered, thus policy is
called for. What<BR>PROOF is there that money for IPv4 transfers at this
time will help<BR>anything?<BR><BR> Has anyone ever bothered SURVEYING
the existing<BR>IPv4 holders to find out what percentage would even CONSIDER
renumbering<BR>should an IPv4 market appear? And at what price
point?<BR><BR> The ONLY USE that liberalized transfer RIGHT NOW are for
people who<BR>are PLANNING on hoarding and going into business as IPv4
brokers. They<BR>are of no use to anyone else when ARIN still has IPv4
to hand out.<BR><BR> We have enough work with making policy for things
that we KNOW ARE<BR>HAPPENING<BR>RIGHT NOW. For example, in the past
some have asserted in this forum that<BR>some of Dean Anderson's IP addresses
are hijacked. Has anything<BR>been done to even investigate this?
And if it was investigated and<BR>discovered<BR>to be true, what mechanism
exists to get them back? Nothing! THERE is<BR>where<BR>the policy
blanks are that need filling in.<BR><BR> We also have assertions that a
number of IPv4 legacy blocks are<BR>abandonded. And<BR>we have 2
proposals (mine one) that are tentative steps to discovering which<BR>one of
those blocks ARE abandonded. We will need more policy and
more<BR>discussion<BR>to work out a mechanism for ARIN to define abandonded
legacy blocks and take<BR>them<BR>back. Yet ANOTHER policy
blank.<BR><BR> I think it would be more fruitful to worry about making
policy for<BR>something<BR>that is a problem right now, than for a problem we
think we might possibly<BR>have<BR>a few years down the road. It might
be that in the process of cleaning up<BR>messes like abandonded IPv4 that we
will find that we have a lot more IPv4<BR>than<BR>anyone
thought.<BR><BR>Ted<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PPML<BR>You
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