<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Ted,<DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>I believe you miss the point of my proposal. While I do believe that</DIV><DIV>ARIN has a role to play in applying the clue bat to lame or partially lame</DIV><DIV>ISPs and addressing John's issue, my point is that it belongs in operational</DIV><DIV>guidelines to ARIN staff and not in the NRPM.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>My proposal talks about what I think belongs in the NRPM and is</DIV><DIV>not a direct expression of how I feel about what ARIN staff should or</DIV><DIV>should not be doing with respect to this particular issue. I would fully</DIV><DIV>support an ACSP recommendation that ARIN address all IN-ADDR</DIV><DIV>lameness whether complete or not on any direct assignment. This will</DIV><DIV>potentially require ARIN to examine as many as 255 zones in IPv4 for</DIV><DIV>a single assignment.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>I would oppose any suggestion requiring ARIN to drill down</DIV><DIV>to lame delegations made by the ISPs relating to reassignment or</DIV><DIV>reallocations made by the ISP because of dramatically increasing</DIV><DIV>workload for dramatically decreasing return on investment and</DIV><DIV>because there is a limit to the extent to which I believe ARIN should</DIV><DIV>engage in telling operators how to run their network (let alone their</DIV><DIV>customers' networks).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>I will also oppose any policy regarding the operational and/or</DIV><DIV>implementation details of lame delegations because I firmly believe</DIV><DIV>this is not the role of the NRPM and should be addressed with</DIV><DIV>operational procedures and recommendations rather than with</DIV><DIV>number resource policies.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Owen</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><DIV><DIV>On Sep 11, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Yes John you are correct but the way things often work on this list is someone like Owen will</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2">submit a policy to remove something that shouldn't obviously be removed, the result of</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2">which will convert a bunch of fence sitters into proponents of keeping it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2">The list membership needs Owens "just kill it" proposal precisely to have something to</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2">vote down. A no vote commits the person voting no, to supporting </FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007">the policy.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007">If Owens proposal is voted down, that will destroy all of the "it's not the RIR's responsibility</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007">to enforce sanctions against bad nameserver operators" arguments, and we can move the discussion</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007">to something productive of how to actually fix the problem.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007">Your proposal might be premature - you might find it better to campaign against Owens</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial"><FONT size="2"><SPAN class="310071800-12092007">proposal first.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="310071800-12092007"><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Ted</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir="ltr" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> ppml-bounces@arin.net [<A href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net</A>]<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Von Essen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Public Policy Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ppml] Policy Proposal -- Eliminate Lame Server policy<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I do plan to submit my proposal. My final comment on all of this is with regards to ARIN's stance on operational issues. <DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV>I agree ARIN should be careful, but keep in mind ARIN does provide an operational function of reverse DNS authority delegation. Because ARIN engages in this very-real activity, policy must exist to cover its implementation, design, and overall operational health.</DIV> <DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV>If ARIN just did AS numbers and IP allocation, and another organization did reverse delegation, say Network Solutions, then YES - ARIN should not get involved with operational issues of reverse DNS. But that fact is ARIN does do reverse DNS delegation. When I do a dig on an IP, I see alot of ARIN servers in the output!</DIV> <DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV>-John</DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV> <DIV>On Sep 11, 2007, at 7:21 PM, Azinger, Marla wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I would like to see a proposal that is along the lines of clarifying in addition to Owens proposal to just take it away.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Hopefully we havnt scared John off and he will give a wack at it.</DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Cheers!</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Marla</DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">-----Original Message-----</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">From: <A href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">ppml-bounces@arin.net</A> [<A href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net</A>]On Behalf Of</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">William Herrin</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:32 PM</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">To: Owen DeLong</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Cc: Public Policy Mailing List</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Subject: Re: [ppml] Policy Proposal -- Eliminate Lame Server policy</DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">On 9/11/07, Owen DeLong <<A href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</A>> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">1.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Policy Proposal Name: Deprecate Lame Server Policy</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">7.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Policy statement:</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"></SPAN>Delete section 7 from the NRPM</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Owen,</DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Are you sure this is the right way to move on this? If we're going to</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">call ISPs "Local Internet Registries," shouldn't we expect them to</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">behave as internet registries and do the things that internet</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">registries do, including reallocation and assignment of the RDNS</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">attached to every IP address?</DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Regards,</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Bill Herrin</DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">--<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">William D. Herrin<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><A href="mailto:herrin@dirtside.com">herrin@dirtside.com</A><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><A href="mailto:bill@herrin.us">bill@herrin.us</A></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">3005 Crane Dr.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Web: <<A href="http://bill.herrin.us/">http://bill.herrin.us/</A>></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Falls Church, VA 22042-3004</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">_______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">PPML</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Mailing List (<A href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</A>).</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><A href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml</A> Please contact the ARIN Member Services</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Help Desk at <A href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</A> if you experience any issues.</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">_______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">PPML</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Mailing List (<A href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</A>).</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><A href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml</A> Please contact the ARIN Member Services</DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Help Desk at <A href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</A> if you experience any issues.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"> <DIV>Thanks, </DIV> <DIV>John Von Essen</DIV> <DIV>(800) 248-1736 ext 100</DIV> <DIV><A href="mailto:john@quonix.net">john@quonix.net</A></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">PPML</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mailing List (<A href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</A>).</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml</A> Please contact the ARIN Member Services</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Help Desk at <A href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</A> if you experience any issues.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>