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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>John Paul<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Probably yes and no as to the connectivity
to the global Internet; the requirement for security and the need to do
business often clash harshly I just don’t see any ISP telling their
local power company or hospital that they will no longer carry their IPv4
traffic. And don’t forget that government (rightly or wrongly) will get
involved in that type of issue; my experience is that “politics and
technology make poor bedfellows” as the outcome is not usually what either
wants. From ages ago, in the very early phases of my career, I still know
where there is a major <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>
highway in the southern US that has a very large “dog leg” in it to
preserve “Granma’s walnut tree”. (And yea, 35 years ago I
was civil engineering student designing highways not networks; I’m still
registered as a PE in three states and can still approve civil designs in
them.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It may be true about the difference in “end
of life” and conceivably the legacy v4 could be tunneled across a v6
Internet, but only time will tell how it evolves.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We just have no way to rip IPv4 out of
everyplace we have put it; embedded control systems are really not “upgradeable”!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Take care</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Terry</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> John Paul Morrison [mailto:jmorrison@bogomips.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 12, 2007
10:57 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Davis,
Terry L</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</st1:PersonName>;
ppml@arin.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [ppml] IPv4 "Up
For Grabs" proposal</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I really, *really* hope these systems are not
connected to the global Internet! :-)<br>
<br>
I think there's likely a big difference between IPv4 end of life on the Public
Internet, and IPv4 end of life on private networks, control systems etc.<br>
<br>
Right now the Internet is a bunch of private networks running IPv4 and
internetworking with IPv4. For the Internet to evolve it will need to be a
bunch of private networks running either IPv4 and/or v6, and internetworking
with IPv6. (If you can interconnect with v6, v4 becomes redundant and will
likely be thought of as a security hole).<br>
<br>
I don't see how two protocols, side by side on the same device are scalable on
the Public Internet for very long. We could see:<br>
<br>
1. Stick with IPv4, forget IPv6. (Ab)use NAT, trade valuable IPv4 addresses on
the black market, the whole thing could keep going indefinitely but it would
get more and more in the way of commerce as IPv4 addresses get expensive.<br>
<br>
2. Dual stack for a transition period, but who wants to double their network
administration workload?<br>
<br>
Hosting farms have very complicated setups for load balancing, firewalls, DNS
etc. I wouldn't want to keep maintaining two sets of rules.<br>
Services providers have complicated networks, do they want to start messing
around much if they don't have to?<br>
<br>
If you look at 6PE for MPLS service providers, you side step having to make
changes in the IPv4 MPLS core, and you can easily add IPv6 at the edge for VPNs
or even the global routing table. 6to4 can do some similar things,
leveraging IPv4 networks.<br>
I don't really consider 6to4 or 6PE as dual stack, except at the edge.<br>
<br>
If I operate a large hosting site and want to start offering v6 (maybe so
developing countries can reach me natively or whatever), I'm going to use an
appliance or firewall that automates this process, leaving existing systems
alone for the time being.<br>
<br>
3. "Native" IPv6 Public Internet. I would define this as the
day one can safely put an AAAA record in DNS as the only entry, and expect
anyone to reach it, with the onus on the querier to deal with the NAT'ing to
IPv4 if necessary. At this point it becomes redundant to return A
records. I'm sure the IPv4 Internet will still be around but I would assume it
would mainly be carrying tunneled v6 traffic over it. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Davis</st1:place></st1:City>,
Terry L</st1:PersonName> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I agree and I started to respond to a post week with a similar response and got distracted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I can absolutely guarantee that the aviation industry expects the migration from v4 to v6 to take over 25 years. We just expect to build airplanes that can deal with OSI, v4, and v6. The global air traffic management system is made up of 10 of thousands of pieces controlled by approaching 1000 different organizations from small private operations to nations and v4 is already built into infrastructure pieces that are not likely to see communications upgrades for 10 to 20 years. I routinely speak to aviation industry leaders on this and I generally place v4 end of life somewhere from 25 to 40 years out.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Likewise most critical infrastructure around the globe is the same; the SCADA that runs this today is mostly all v4 as are the hospital's (including Intensive Care Units) infrastructure around the world. This type of infrastructure is much harder to convert than just corporate IT; it takes years of planning and scores of individual governmental design approvals/certifications to change it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Take care<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Terry<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: JORDI PALET <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">MARTINEZ</st1:place></st1:City> [<a
href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es">mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:44 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: <a
href="mailto:ppml@arin.net">ppml@arin.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [ppml] IPv4 "Up For Grabs" proposal<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I already mention this in other threads (may be not in ppml).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv6 has been designed to coexist with IPv4 for an undetermined period of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>time. It is not expected to run *only* IPv4 since day one, and not all the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>stacks actually support this. In fact, many stacks are somehow hybrids<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>instead of two-stacks, what it means that you can't disable IPv4 (of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>course<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>you can let IPv4 "un-configured", which is almost equivalent).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This means that IPv4 will be here for a long time and dual-stack is the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>main<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>transition technique. This will change with the time, at least in some<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>networks, once IPv6 traffic become predominant, among other economic<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>factors.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>You always will have, at least for many years, old IPv4 boxes that can't<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>be<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>upgrades, and the easier way to reach them is if you run dual-stack, at<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>least in the hosts in any LAN, instead of requiring translation. This<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>doesn't mean public IPv4 addresses, as in most of the situations, private<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4 behind NAT and global IPv6 will make it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>However, the question may be different for whatever is not an end-site LAN<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(for instance backbone, access, etc.), as there are already protocols such<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>as softwires (basically L2TP), that allow you to automatically tunnel<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4-in-IPv6 (or in the other way around today in most of the IPv4-only<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>networks), in order to be able to handle the IPv4-only applications in an<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>automatic fashion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This is the case for some big networks (+5.000 sites) that we have where<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>initial deployment was completely dual-stack, and then we realized that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>because the kind of traffic was becoming predominantly IPv6, and most of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4 traffic was basically going to Internet thru proxies, it make sense<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>turn the proxies dual-stack and carry that inside the complete network as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4-in-IPv6 (up to the proxy), so we had been able to disable IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>everywhere (except in the LANs, for both clients and servers).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This is the model that I certainly believe will be the one as IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>penetration becomes bigger and bigger, and then as indicated by Kevin,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>will vanish naturally ...<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I've introduced the description of this scenario also in a document that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I've circulated a few weeks ago<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(<a
href="http://www.ipv6tf.org/index.php?page=news/newsroom&id=3004">http://www.ipv6tf.org/index.php?page=news/newsroom&id=3004</a>), as I believe<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that this will mean less trouble for possible "new" ISPs when IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>addresses<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>are gone or "almost" gone and at the same time will help existing ISPs to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>keep growing their networks without the need for asking for more IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>addresses to the RIR.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>De: Kevin Kargel <a
href="mailto:kkargel@polartel.com"><kkargel@polartel.com></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Responder a: <a
href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net"><ppml-bounces@arin.net></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Fecha: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:07:16 -0500<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><st1:place
w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Para</span></font></st1:place>: <a href="mailto:PPML@arin.net"><PPML@arin.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Conversación: [ppml] IPv4 "Up For Grabs" proposal<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Asunto: Re: [ppml] IPv4 "Up For Grabs" proposal<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Why is there such a big push to drop IPv4? Is there a reason that v4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>and v6 can't operate concurrently in perpetuity? Won't the customers go<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>where the content is and the content go where the money is?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I would suggest that if IPv6 is a good thing (and I firmly believe that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>it is) then networks will naturally gravitate to IPv6. That being the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>case then let IPv4 die a natural death of attrition. There is no need<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>to murder it outright.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>If in fact IPv4 continues to survive and thrive alongside IPv6 wouldn't<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that very fact demonstrate the need to keep it going and foster it?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It sounds like a lot of people have so little faith in the value of IPv6<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that they for some odd reason cinsider IPv4 a threat. If IPv6 is<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>better than IPv4 then people will use it. If it isn't then they will<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>stay where they are. I see no reason to 'force' people to switch. They<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>will move when it is in their best interests to do so for features and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>markets.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: <a
href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [<a
href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>] On<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:51 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: bill fumerola; 'ARIN PPML'<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [ppml] IPv4 "Up For Grabs" proposal<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: <a
href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [<a
href="mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net">mailto:ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]On<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Behalf Of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>bill fumerola<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:32 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: 'ARIN PPML'<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [ppml] IPv4 "Up For Grabs" proposal<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 05:09:59PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>OK, then how exactly is this fact an argument AGAINST arin<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>simply removing<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>these records out of it's whois? Which is what I am suggesting?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>who does that hurt? the legacy holders or the rest of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>community<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>trying to use a tool to find out who to contact when that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>netblock<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>does something foolish.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>as a paying ARIN member, i want ARIN to keep track of as much as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>they're legally, financially, technically allowed to. that WHOIS<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>service is more useful to me, the paying ARIN member, not<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>the legacy holder.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>For now. What about post-IPv4 runout?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>i think you assume that ARIN's IPv4 services will change in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>some major<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>way when that happens. i don't believe the memebership would<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>want that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>change and the IPv6 fees at that point would cover<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>maintanence of those<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>'legacy' systems. i'd imagine ripping the IPv4 components would be<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>more costly than just maintaining them after any sort of:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>ipv4 runout<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>of addresses by ARIN, ipv6 eclipse of ipv4, ipv4 runout of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>addresses by<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IANA, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>i would want to see the same level of service provided. no<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>difference<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>between legacy pre-ARIN holders and paid members.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>So then if the membership doesen't want IPv4 to be removed<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>from the registries, then what is going to be created is a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>situation where nobody has any incentive to remove their IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>reachability, nor remove the ability for their customers to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>reach IPv4 sites.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>In short, IPv4 will NEVER "go away" Your proposing a future<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>were we add IPv6, and nobody ever gives up IPv4 resources.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So the Internet merely becomes an Internet of both IPv6 and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4, not an Internet of IPv4 only or an Internet of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv6 only.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I'm not debating we could or couldn't do this technically.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>However, if we do this, then don't you see that ALL IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>holders, not just the legacy ones, will never have any<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>incentive to drop IPv4.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>If all of that is OK with you, then why would an existing<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>paying IPv4 holder today who doesen't need numbering, want to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>bother going to IPv6? After all you just said everyone will<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>be maintaining their IPv4, so what need is there for an<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>holder to load up IPv6? The only incentive I see would be to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>reach a network that is IPv6 ONLY, such as a network that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>needs numbering post-IPv4 runout.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This puts a terrible burden on these networks because since<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>they are new, they cannot be reached by a lot of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Internet, and it is not likely that they can provide enough<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>of an incentive to get IPv4-only holders to update to reach them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Ted<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This message sent to you through the ARIN Public Policy<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This message sent to you through the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(<a
href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>**********************************************<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The IPv6 Portal: <a
href="http://www.ipv6tf.org">http://www.ipv6tf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 !<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.ipv6day.org">http://www.ipv6day.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>information, including attached files, is prohibited.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This message sent to you through the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(<a
href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This message sent to you through the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(<a
href="mailto:PPML@arin.net">PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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