[arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2025-1: Clarify ISP and LIR Definitions and References to Address Ambiguity in NRPM Text

Sun Sep 21 07:20:25 EDT 2025

Again, just to add my voice that it should state LIR and the parenthetical
should be “(LIR = ISP often used in the American region historically)”.

Just because most of the folks participating in ARIN policy discussions are
from ISPs or have historical viewpoints, I do not believe we should
maintain a unique definition for the term ISP for their sake and instead
should look at all constituents as well as globally accepted terms. Just
because we ARE different doesn’t mean we SHOULD be.

While never being very vocal, I have participated and paid attention to
ARIN since its start when I worked at Perot Systems ‘95-98 and had my first
POC established to manage multi-ISP connected hospitals we provided
outsourced WAN for. Again, Perot was not an ISP but facilitated the
technology aspects for multiple healthcare clients (from my division at
least). Became a voting member while at AOL (‘99-‘14) aka ATDN-AS1668; and
voting member again at First Data/Fiserv (‘16-present) and again, not an
ISP.

Jay
-- 
Jay Moran
http://linkedin.com/in/jaycmoran

On Sun, Sep 21, 2025 at 1:36 AM Mohibul Mahmud <mohibul.mahmud at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Owen,
>
> Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree that “LIR” is the globally
> recognized term and makes sense for ARIN’s policy language. My goal has
> been to ease the transition for ARIN members who are used to seeing “ISP”
> in forms, guides, and templates.
>
> To the broader group: I believe we can align with global terminology while
> supporting clarity for ARIN’s community. Using “LIR” in the NRPM, with a
> glossary note like *“ISP = LIR in ARIN’s context”*, helps bridge the gap
> while keeping definitions clear.
>
> If ARIN eventually updates operational materials to reflect “LIR,” a
> phased approach — like using *ISP (LIR)* during the transition — might
> help members adjust smoothly.
>
> Appreciate the thoughtful discussion and everyone’s input.
>
> Best,
> Mohibul Mahmud
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 21, 2025 at 12:58 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>
>> So your suggestion in my estimation would be roughly equivalent to
>> publishing all technical drawings and schematics showing measurements in
>> inches, but redefining an inch to be 32mm and having a note somewhere
>> explaining that throughout the drawing,
>> Inches are actually 32mm long instead of 25.4mm.
>>
>> I don’t think this reduces confusion, but rather exacerbates and prolongs
>> it. I truly don’t understand the advantage of not simply having a proper
>> definition of LIR and noting that said definition includes, but is not
>> limited to all classes of ISP. If you want to also define ISP for ARIN
>> policy purposes as including what most people think of as an ISP plus
>> everything else in the LIR category, sure, I don’t mind that, but let’s
>> please standardize ARIN terminology with the rest of the world and user LIR.
>>
>> While NRPM doesn’t control ARIN business practices, were we to do that,
>> I’d certainly submit an ACSP encouraging the board and staff to adopt LIR
>> as their standard terminology as well and I’m pretty sure that staff and
>> the board would actually follow the community’s lead here.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>> On Sep 20, 2025, at 20:57, Mohibul Mahmud <mohibul.mahmud at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>
>> Thank you for the continued thoughtful discussion on this draft policy.
>> The core challenge is balancing global precision (the “LIR” term of art)
>> with regional accessibility and consistency (the “ISP” label used in
>> ARIN’s operations and documentation).
>>
>>
>> A practical example of how this balance is handled elsewhere comes from
>> the DNS community. Both ICANN and the IETF distinguish between “authoritative
>> name server” (precise, technical role) and the broader term “name
>> server” or “DNS server” (commonly used in general documentation). For
>> example:
>>
>>
>>
>>    - ICANN’s glossary provides a specific definition of “authoritative
>>    name server.”
>>
>>
>> https://www.icann.org/en/icann-acronyms-and-terms/authoritative-name-server-en?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=A-,authoritative%20name%20server,-A%20Domain%20Name
>>
>>
>>
>>    - IETF RFC 9499 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/> notes
>>    that both authoritative servers and resolvers are “often called DNS servers
>>    or name servers, even though they serve different roles.”
>>
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9499/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=often%20called%0A%20%20%20%22DNS%20servers%22%20and%20%22name%20servers%22%20even%20though%20they%20serve%20different%0A%20%20%20roles
>>
>>
>> This model works because the precise role is rigorously defined, while
>> the common terminology remains usable for general understanding.
>>
>>
>> I suggest ARIN adopt a similar dual-term approach:
>>
>>    1. In NRPM text: Use “ISP (LIR)” on first reference in sections, then
>>    “ISP” with the clarified meaning.
>>    2. Glossary definition: Add an NRPM glossary entry: “ISP: For the
>>    purposes of this document, ISP is equivalent to Local Internet Registry
>>    (LIR).”
>>    3. Operational consistency: Continue using “ISP” in templates,
>>    guides, and ARIN’s website, backed by the clarified definition.
>>
>>
>> This approach addresses the ambiguity directly. It acknowledges the
>> global standard (LIR) while respecting ARIN’s established conventions
>> (ISP), ensuring the policy is both precise for experts and accessible to
>> newcomers.
>>
>>
>> Would the authors and community be open to incorporating this kind of
>> dual-term definition into the draft policy text?
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mohibul Mahmud
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2025 at 10:32 PM Jon Lewis <jlewis at lewis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2025, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>>>
>>> > Please explain what is confusing about the current usage of both LIR
>>> and ISP?
>>> > The following Blog post from ARIN seems perfectly straightforward to
>>> me;
>>> >  https://www.arin.net/blog/2023/02/28/ISP-or-end-user/
>>> >
>>> > And the following page is about Requesting IP addresses.
>>> > https://www.arin.net/resources/guide/request/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > They both seem to address the idea that LIR and ISP are
>>> effectively the same thing.
>>>
>>> Just a week ago, I asked if someone could give examples of how an ARIN
>>> member could be an LIR and not be an ISP, and was told "there are ways".
>>>
>>> The page referenced above is confusing, because it simultaneously says
>>> ISP
>>> = LIR and LIR != ISP.  If an LIR is "generally" an ISP, then that
>>> suggests
>>> there are circumstances in which an LIR is not an ISP.
>>>
>>> >From the page:
>>>
>>>   Let’s start by defining the elephant in the room: Local Internet
>>> Registry
>>>   (LIR). In short, an LIR is an Internet Service Provider (ISP). As
>>> defined
>>>   in ARIN’s Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM):
>>>
>>>   “A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns
>>> address
>>>   space to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are
>>>   generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs), whose customers are
>>>   primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.”
>>>
>>>   You may find that ARIN and many members of the community use ISP and
>>> LIR
>>>   interchangeably in conversation. So, when someone says “ISP,” you can
>>>   think of that as “ISP/LIR.”
>>>
>>> So, which is it?  ISP and LIR are the same thing, or all ISPs with
>>> direct
>>> allocations can be LIRs (but don't have to be), but not all LIRs are
>>> ISPs?
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>   Jon Lewis, MCP :)              |  I route
>>>   Blue Stream Fiber, Sr. Neteng  |  therefore you are
>>> _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public
>>> key________________________________________________________
>>> ARIN-PPML
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