[arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals

Fri Apr 18 04:28:29 EDT 2025

Hi John,

I think your response is more clear now for me, in the sense that even if the wording in some documents is looking as “organizations”, actually when you evaluate a request, you ensure that the “organization” match each specific state or country rules.

If that’s the case, I think the documents should be also much more clear on that, because someone, just reading the documents, not necessarily will come back to ARIN if he understands that because is a self-employed (with need for resources), so it is a bad thing.

Not  sure if I’m being understood: we need clarity in the documents, policies, etc., because small business/individuals *most of the time* will not waste the time to ask ARIN (in this case), “I’m not an organization but I’do business on my own, why I can’t get resources” and they may look even into other RIRs, etc. for them, or just desist and do it only with IPv4+NAT (they can’t multihome IPv6 without their own prefix, or they want to avoid renumbering hassle if changing operator, etc.).

Also because an individual without a business, in US/Canada, *in most of the states*, has a very simple and cheap procedure to become a self-employee (again if I understood all the thread correctly), even in those cases, they are able to “become public” and obtain resources. My main questioning here is then limited to “should we ensure in some way that individuals in the ARIN service region, that don’t have the facility as in many places in US, can also obtain resources”?

Note that I’m sure this will not create an avalanche of request, according to the figures I got from other RIRs (still didn’t got *all* the info, will make a summary once I’ve it), but precisely becase it won’t become a “sudden” problem, I think we must agree that it make sense not to create such a distinction.

Now, if we just want to resolve the clarity problem on the actual NRPM, in a first look, I think we just need to add in the definitions section a broader definition of “end-user organization” to match with “organization as legally understood in the state, location or country where it is established”. Not sure if something else will be needed in service agreement, etc., but that’s out of the policy scope. I’m happy to work myself and any other possible co-author interested in participate, in a policy proposal, but I think we should also decide if we want to resolve the individuals without a business case.

The problem I see is what happens if you move from one state to another and the rules are different, but you already got the resources in your 1st location. Are you able to keep them or ARIN will recover them once this is “discovered”?

Regards,
Jordi

@jordipalet

> El 17 abr 2025, a las 14:21, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribió:
> 
> Jordi - 
> 
> The representation you seek from ARIN regarding government procedures across the the entire region is not possible to make – and as you note, it would be meaningless the very next day because such laws and regulations are outside of ARIN’s control and subject to change.  Note that this is the case regardless of whether speaking of networks run by organizations or individuals – the legal requirements on networks in any given portion of the ARIN region are not determined by ARIN.
> 
> What we can say is that our customers want us to be reasonably flexible in our processes to the extent possible, just as we are with respect to confirming whether organizations requesting resources operate within the ARIN region.  We’ve evolved our processes over time to make be more straightforward, and this includes handling entities that are incorporated, those using DBA registrations, sole proprietorships, etc.
> 
> Your original query noted that ‘ In LACNIC we are having a discussion because the policy manual only allows to distribute resources to “organizations legally registered” ‘ – To be clear, ARIN is effectively the same, but we are quite flexible in recognition of how our network customers may go about their legal registration.  
> 
> Thanks!
> /John
> 
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
> 
>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 3:00 AM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>> A couple of questions on this:
>> 
>> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this “simple and “inexpensive” procedure is the same in all the “areas” (states, whatever is te division in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN?
>> 
>> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that “status” (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don’t had economical activity), is close to “zero"?
>> 
>> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership documents ask for something that doesn’t depend on ARIN decisions, instead of relaying in making sure that you provide “real documents” and of course a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already set in the policies for each type of resource)?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>> 
>> @jordipalet
>> 
>> 
>>> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribió:
>>> 
>>> Ryan - 
>>> 
>>> Indeed.  As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in this discussion,  ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number resources.  Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, incorporation of a legal entity works – hence the reason for further discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be solved. 
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> /John
>>> 
>>> John Curran
>>> President and CEO
>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16 PM, Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> John,
>>>> 
>>>> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and the legal team.
>>>> 
>>>> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's agreements.
>>>> 
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Ryan Hamel
>>>> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM
>>>> To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
>>>> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>>>>  
>>>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>>> 
>>>> John, 
>>>> 
>>>> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. 
>>>> 
>>>> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the owner's name.
>>>> 
>>>> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't neatly align with ARIN procedures. 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04 PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net <mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02 PM, Paul E McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net <mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Originally 
>>>>> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by this.
>>>>> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with the Secretary of State.
>>>>> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with Secretary of State database.
>>>>> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that wasn't good enough.
>>>> 
>>>> Paul - 
>>>> 
>>>> To be certain there’s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted from the organization requirement – are you saying that you were unable to register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013?  There is a 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> /John
>>>> 
>>>> John Curran
>>>> President and CEO
>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>>> 
>>> 
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